Abe_Froman

No, it is not stealing.

That's like saying murder is stealing if it's against the law. Not all illegal things are "stealing."

If an IP owner has $100 before some infringed on their electronic copyright, and they have $100 after someone infringed on their copyright, there was no robbery. There was copyright infringement.

Not the same thing.

memebag

Don't be silly. I didn't say everything that's against the law was stealing. The law defines what "stealing" is, and if law includes copying IP without permission in that definition (and it does), then copying IP without permission is stealing.

If an IP owner sells his product for $10 and someone copies it without paying him, he has $10 less than he should according to the law.

If this confuses you, send me all of your paychecks but keep working really hard. You won't be losing any money at all so you shouldn't complain.

kingston 

Of course I'm familiar with the arguments in favor of IP protection. I just don't think the benefits outweigh the costs. All cost-benefit analysis comes down to how people value costs and benefits, so people naturally disagree.

memebag

As someone who makes his living creating IP, I favor laws protecting IP.

I'm not arguing that our current laws are perfect. Most protections are too long lived, and our patent office isn't up to the task of distinguishing real inventions from farce.

Abe_Froman

You're making an assumption that someone who illegally downloads content would be willing (or even ABLE) to pay for it if it weren't illegally available . I don't think that is a valid assumption, or even a probable scenario.

Regarding IP copying classified as stealing...where are you seeing that? I'm not saying you're wrong...I'm just curious. I'd never seen it classified like that.

Abe_Froman

I do as well, and mostly to protect the livelihoods of individual creators of content. But I think labeling downloading something without permission from the original creator as 'stealing' is a gross misrepresentation.

kingston 

Our views may not actually be that different. My conclusion is to throw out the laws because I don't think they do a very good job of accomplishing what we would like them to accomplish. Your conclusion is to make the laws better. I would agree with you more if there were any evidence of that ever happening.

memebag

I'm not making that assumption. I'm saying the person who copies IP without permission gains the benefit of its use without paying for that benefit. They may never have paid for it, but neither would they have received the benefit.

Here's an introduction to the laws that cover theft of IP: https://www.legalmatch.com/law-libra...rty-theft.html

Abe_Froman

You'll notice that if you read the article, every example given involved a person using copyrighted content for personal profit. I don't have an issue labeling that as theft.

But we need to make a distinction between enriching ones self, and being able to listen to a song you weren't planning on buying anyway. One is a victimless 'crime' and one is not.

memebag

That page defines IP theft:

Intellectual property is any material or idea that is protected by copyright, trademark, patent, or trade secret laws. This type of property includes client lists, poems, mechanical inventions, and logos. Intellectual property theft occurs when a person knowingly takes, uses, misappropriates, or otherwise steals property that is protected under intellectual property laws.

Give me all your paychecks. There is no victim.

Abe_Froman

I’m not even sure what you’re getting at. How are my paychecks relevant?

memebag

Explained in post 129.

If you use my software without paying, you benefit from my work but I don't. You call that a "victimless crime" because I didn't lose any money, I just didn't make money. So send me your paychecks. You won't lose money, you just won't make money. See how victimless that is.

Abe_Froman

I'm not buying your software right now anyway. Nor do I ever plan to in the future.

What's changed? Tell me now how me downloading your software without permission will impact your bank account. Your post #129 used a false assumption that the person would have made $10 in the first place. I'm saying that was never going to happen, so there is no damage.

WhyFi

Rationalizing pirates are the worst. If you're going to steal ****, just own up to the fact that you're stealing **** instead of playing BS mental games with yourself.

Abe_Froman

Oh please. You guys are taking uptightness to a new level. I get the impression you guys would get upset if someone were stealing shade from a tree you planted that was overhanging the sidewalk in front of your house.

"You didn't plant that tree! If yer gonna walk, walk in the street, where it's sunny! Outta my shade!"

WhyFi

Lol. Nope - try again.

njkayaker

There is strong evidence that some posters here don't do intellectual work.

kbarch

I'd argue with you about a lot of thing things you said earlier, but I've gotta give this a I got a chuckle out of it.

Abe_Froman

Thanks, I aim to please.

I mean..it does take a special kind of person to get upset about someone ‘stealing’ from a DIFFERENT person or company, when the ‘victim’ will go their entire life without even realizing anything had been stolen. Except what was stolen is actually still there in their posession, in the same condition it were before.

And if i’m being honest I DO see both sides. But this all falls solidly in the “meh” category for me. There’s way better things to get panties in a bunch about. Like ketchup on hot dogs, for example. THAT is a crime worth stopping.

memebag

Again, I'm not assuming the thief would have bought anything. But they got the benefit of someone else's labor without paying. They stole their time.

What do you do for a living? Do you create something physical? Do you perform a service? If people received the benefit of your creation, or service, or effort, but you were not compensated, what would you do? You would have to find some other way to put bread on the table.

Maybe you inherited wealth. I didn't. I create software to feed my family. My time has value.

kbarch

Can we get back to bogus cycling kit, please?

One of the things I liked about the Acqua & Sapone / Mokambo speedsuit was that it had an uncannily dubious appearance - it sort of raised the question of its own authenticity. It looked like it was a made-up team, with made-up sponsors. I've spent about five months all told in Italy over the last few years, but I don't remember ever seeing those brands Was there ever really such a team? At the same time, it was fairly convincing. "Team Formaggio?" Not so much. Turns out my subconscious knew it was a real team - I'd just forgotten about it.

As for the design itself, I'm not generally a fan of red jerseys and shorts, but these had enough white and bits of blue to overcome that. Then there's the the bubbles, so altogether it's walking a very thin line separating seriousness and goofiness, which I kind of like to tread. Not so wacky as their zebra kit, which is rather infamous.

Here's a photo of the REAL kit (but ordinary jersey and shorts) on the REAL team:
Stefano Garzelli (whom we happened to run into at a cafe during the Giro a couple of years ago) in the foreground. Turns out I actually know a guy who was on the A&S team. The guy who ran the tour I took last year was on that team in'06 (but the kit was all red then, and made by Nalini).

I took a look on ebay to see if anyone was selling legit kit speedsuits from defunct teams: mighty slim pickings. Katusha had a similar design (Red, white, and bit of blue) not too long ago, but the only thing available was the wrong size. Anyone ever have any luck with that? Meanwhile, ye olde team designs available mass-market are just boring. Seems folks get custom jerseys for all kinds of reasons though, so maybe I should just invent a team and make up my own logos (a lot harder than it sounds, I know!)....

edit add: I've got it! Team Lorem Ipsum! By the way - I'm'a copyright that....

Stratocaster

I can tell by the way you change the meaning of words that you would consider any further discussion on my part to be "violent".

kingston 

I'm curious to know what words you think I'm changing the meaning of. It's hard to have a conversation when you make unsubstantiated claims followed by the rolleyes emoji. Discussion on a bike forum can be rude, but it can never be violent.

memebag

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun. - Mao Zedong

If you break a law and get caught, the state will command you to pay, with your time, money or both. If you fail to pay you will be compelled to pay. If you resist then the state is allowed to use violence against you. Behind all law is the threat of violence.

Oneder

As the consumer you don't need to remotely care. If someone has a problem with it they can get a lawyer.

Same with knockoff bags like luis 'vitton'. Nothing stops you buying a cheap bag that looks like some other bag. And if you really buy a 3000 dollar bag and are not filthy rich then you are kind of a fool, aren't you?