bikemig 

We're talking about bikes made in Japan, right? Vintage Treks and Cannondales are fine bikes. By the 80s, the Japanese by and large were selling better bikes in the US market than were the Europeans. At similar price points, you were getting better frames and parts than the European bikes. And I"m a Peugeot guy from way back. I built a lot of them in shop in the 80s.

cyccommute 

A cheap bike...and there are a whole lot of cheap old Japanese bikes as well as European bikes out there...is still a cheap bike. In all likelihood, cheap bikes from any country probably came from Giant and were simply badged with the company's name. So, technically, they were Taiwanese bikes but had Japanese, European and US names on them.

But a good European bike or a good US bike compares favorably with a good Japanese bike of the same era. I'll state again that there really wasn't anything exceptional about a Japanese bike. I've owned a lot of bikes going back to 1977...38 at last count...I haven't owned many European but I've owned a lot of Japanese, Taiwanese and US bikes. Overall, I would put the mass produced US bike's I've owned at a higher quality than the Japanese and I'd put the Japanese bikes at about the same level as the Taiwanese bikes in terms of frame and parts.

The US bikes I currently own are on a whole different level than anything else I've owned.

bikemig 

In all honesty, I can't believe that you are finding it this difficult to stay on the topic which is about bikes made in Japan as opposed to those that were outsourced.

Insofar as your post actually gets to the OP's post, you are welcome to keep repeating yourself (and that has been my experience with your posts). I think we established a few posts ago that we disagree.

fietsbob

Japan was/is an outsource supplier , exporting to other countries

and applying the importers brand names., before shipping them out..

cyccommute 

Touchy. Touchy!

If I repeat myself it's because you aren't getting my point. My point is which "Japanese" bikes are we talking about? "Japanese" bikes can be rebadged just like European or US bikes can be. A Miyata 210, for example, is a pretty poor bike wherever it was made. A Miyata 912 was a pretty good bike independent of where it was made. The 210 was likely made in Taiwan but it is still a "Japanese" bike according to the badge.

Other people have talked about custom Japanese bikes. They are probably good but are then better than a custom US made or European made bicycle? Not really.

Are Japanese bikes better than Taiwanese made bikes of a similar price point? Not in my experience. Are they better than European bikes of a similar price point? No. Ask yourself whether you'd rather have a Miyata 912 with Japanese components from 1989 or a Pinarello with Campy parts from the same era?

bikemig 

I did get your point. You just find it difficult to stay on topic There were some beautiful bikes made in Japan which is what the OP is talking about. Weird.

And you keep comparing apples to apples (a mass produced bike to a bike from a small specialty builder). Weird.

This is around the 3 time that you have repeated yourself that there is nothing exceptional about Japanese manufactured bikes. Cool, I'll bet you'll do it again. 4 for the win and you'll convince everyone including yourself.

Kontact

Names like Fuji, Takara, Miyata, Kuwahara, Sekai and Shogun?

fietsbob

Specialized bicycle imports, Schwinn, many others..

DIMcyclist

Just an fyi, Fuji was their own thing; also the last major domestic Japanese bike maker to outsource production to Taiwan in the mid-1990s, a late start that sadly led to the company's demise later in that decade. While extremely rare in the U.S. after '94, every so often you can occasionally still find some of these later Fujis; they're fine bikes. The current company is owned by the same conglomerate that also owned the Raleigh brand for a while, and their bikes are made in Taiwan. That said, from about 2000 to 2004, the last top-line steel Fujis were made by Toyo, in the same facility where Rivendell outsourced their Taiwanese frames.

Miyata is still around, and I've heard they still produce their bikes in Japan, but are now a much, much smaller company than they were in the 1980s; I also heard they were hit pretty hard by the great Tohoku tsunami.

(Edit: not to be confused with Koga-Miyata: these are a European-made joint-venture, makers of fine expedition touring bikes.)

I seem to recall that Takaras (like Nishiki) were made by Kawamura, and Shoguns were made by Yamaguchi (who, like Kuwahara & Kawamura made frames for several U.S. distributed brands); I seem to recall someone on C&V mentioning that Sekai were also made in Japan by Yamaguchi.

Not to pick a bone (or scab), but wouldn't that comparison be more like pumpkins to... cherries? Wouldn't a mass-produced Kawamura be a ridiculously bad comparison to... say, a 3Rensho or a Zunow? Or an an Alps?

Anyway...

That's as far as I'm willing to contribute to this thread, as a particular element of DEEPLY misplaced, jingoistic flag-waving exhibited herein grates up against my ability to civilly restrain my wit.

-

cyccommute 

How am I not "staying on topic"? robertj298 question was about as broad on a question could be. Yes, there are some beautiful bikes that have been and are being made in Japan. Are you honestly saying that they are better than anything else made in the world.

Yes I am comparing apples to apples. Trek and Cannondale aren't and weren't "small specialty builders". But I think you meant to say apples to oranges (which have been shown to be the same). Why aren't you taking DIMcyclist to task for doing the same?

By my count only twice.

Trakhak

From the late '70s to mid-'80s, the average decent Japanese bike had better-working and better-made components than the average decent European bike, which almost certainly accounts at least in part for the posts touting how great the Japanese bikes of that era were.

On the other hand, I remember encountering problems in fitting customers to Soma bikes (not the expensive current brand but a moderate-quality Japanese brand, previously also marketed as World Of Wheels and American Eagle).

Turned out that Soma used parallel seat and head tube angles and the same lengths of top tube and down tube for all four sizes of their men's racing bikes, with only the seat tube and head tube lengths changing, a practice that they'd carried over from their single-speed and three-speed city bikes. Building bikes that way saves money but makes for some weird bike fitting.

At the other extreme, in the same shop, we'd picked up the Torpado line, which an importer had brought in from Italy in 1-cm frame size increments over the full size range: 49 to 61 cm, I think. Even the model selling at about $275 came in all of those sizes.

Those were very easy to sell---anyone we sent out on test rides of the three likeliest sizes, even those who were convinced that they wouldn't be able to tell the difference, came back in love with one of the sizes.

Japan did up their game in frame geometry very quickly in the '80s, but by that time Trek and, soon after, Cannondale had started coming up with game-changing bikes. In our shop, once we began bringing in those American brands, we dropped Soma and never bothered picking up another Japanese brand.

If you lived in an area where the bike dealers didn't carry either Trek or Cannondale, I can see where you'd be convinced that the Japanese bikes were the best around. The few European companies that were still around were on life support, Schwinn was continuing to fall behind, and Ross et al. were, with a few exceptions such as the Tom Kellogg Ross Signatures, going after the department store market.

So if you leave Trek and Cannondale out of the equation, I agree that the Japanese bikes of that era look very good. I'd personally always take an '80s Trek or Cannondale or Italian bike over most '80s Japanese bikes, though.

Witterings

OP ... as this has degenerated into a bun fight of who has the strongest opinion ... you've commented a couple of times in reply ... WHY did you actually ask the question in the 1st place and what you were trying to find out ... maybe people can be a bit more specific to give you a clearer answer if they understand the reasoning behind it??

bikemig 

You're kidding right? You dismissed Japanese bikes by comparing them to top European bikes with full campy or by expanding out the range to include cheapie bikes that the OP was not talking about.

The bottom line is that your core claim that the Japanese mass manufacturers of the 70s, 80s, and 90s did not make exceptional bikes is just weird. They made beautiful bikes every bit as good as and in some key respects superior to anything being put out from the old world by equivalent mass manufacturers. To say otherwise is to ignore--among other things--the history of the derailleur let alone the innovations made by Shimano that are with us today.

eja_ bottecchia

Kontact

Only if you count quality, innovation, longevity, cability, mileage and value. Otherwise, not so much.

eja_ bottecchia

Kontact

It is just an opinion, but the Japanese have destroyed the American auto industry and have had the top ranked vehicles by sales, performance and quality in most classes. Landcruiser, Prius, Civic, Miata, Accord, NSX, 240Z, RX7, LS400, Camry are all cars that have been widely considered innovative or top rated for decades. I can understand not caring for Japanese cars - I liked my BMW - but are you really surprised that people would think they make quality cars?

Hold onto your hat if you ask about electronics.

eja_ bottecchia

Witterings

Translates to ..... I know I'm losing and can be proven wrong but if I take this stance it appears as though I have command of the situation, will have the last say and don't appear to have "lost face" ????

Francisco Vega

Oh I love japan, if they also make good Bike I will move there

gettingold

Great cars to be sure, but the best? As the owner of 2 German cars and 4 Japanese cars, I'm not sure I'd agree.

eja_ bottecchia

cyccommute 

You really need to actually read what I wrote. robertj298 made a very broad statement. He didn't put any qualifiers on it. He didn't say "compared to other production bikes" or "compared to only inexpensive bikes". I quote him yet again

"Seems like the best ....made in Japan. How about bicycles?" I didn't "dismiss" Japanese bicycles. I simply answered the question.

Why is it "weird"? I happen to disagree. They made good bikes but they certainly weren't all the best nor even most of them. A top of the line Miyata or Fuji or any number of other independent manufacturers can be compared to European top of the line bikes like Pinarello. But most people are going to seek out the Pinarello if they want something really special.

And I'll admit that Shimano...Sun Tour, really...has done some marvelous things in terms of innovation. But Shimano isn't a much of a leader as you might think. The real hot bed of innovation since the 1980s was mountain bikes and most of the advances that have been made were made by small entrepreneurs right here. Shocks, discs, threadless headsets, linear brakes, etc weren't invented by Shimano. They were certainly copies...and perhaps improved...but they didn't do the heavy lifting.

But that doesn't have anything to do with the question at hand. Perhaps someone isn't staying on topic, hmmm?

bikemig 

You keep changing the subject. We are not talking about mountain bikes. That was probably the biggest set of innovations to hit the cycling industry in a long time. Nor have you defended your statement that the Japanese did not built exceptional bikes. If you are talking about aesthetics, cool. Then no one can disagree with you. If you are talking about some sort of objective criterion of excellence among mass produced bikes, then you have failed to make your point other than the compare those bikes to wildly different bikes from small specialty shops.

cyccommute 

No, you just keep thinking I'm changing the subject because you don't want to address the question. What part of "Seems like the best ....made in Japan. How about bicycles?" is limited to road bikes or production bikes? You are assuming limitations to the question at hand that haven't been placed by robertj298's original question. I've already brought up mountain bikes (post 19). Mountain bike technology, whether you like it or not, has trickled down to road bikes. Very little technology has trickled the other way...mostly because there hasn't been much in the way of new technology in road bikes.

And, according to robertj298's very open question, I have defended my statement. We are talking about the "best". Not limited to production. Not limited to a brand. Not limited to a type. As I've pointed out with my example of a Pinarello to which you took exception. In terms of "best", even you think the Pinarello with full Campy is better than a equivalent Japanese bike with Japanese parts. At least I gather that from your reaction as to how it is an unfair comparison.

Finally, the Japanese made and make fine bikes. I just don't feel that they are "the best" in all cases nor are they any better than all other offerings. That's the definition of "best" and "exceptional".