Solo riding - does it build strength/speed?
09-14-18, 08:24 AM
#77
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No it does and strength can be measured but its difficult to measure because the muscles necessary to propel a bicycle are multi-variant and interactive. A strength test to propelling a bicycle the fastest can not be measure by a leg press or how many push ups or how much weight you can curl or bench press. It is overall body strength required to rotating the pedals on the bike. And yes, guys like you will equate Power purely to aerobic fitness and that would be wrong. It is the interaction of body strength and cardio capability that determines Power, not either or. That is why there is no substitute to the training on a bicycle to make a rider faster. No gym exercise can emulate this muscle stress. Your position on the subject in fact denies the very existence of the musculature of the human body...lol.
09-14-18, 08:40 AM
#78
Senior Member
I'm nothing like Griepel, obviously. I've used an SRM, G3, P2max, and C1 powermeters, and have spent a considerable amount of time looking at that data. My peak power does not come anywhere near 100 rpm[/QUOTE]That's not what I said. What I meant was if you're capable of 1400+W for a reasonable amount of time (at least 5 Secs) you likely still have decent (1200?) power at 100rpm.
09-14-18, 08:45 AM
#79
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I'm not capable of 1400 watts for 5 seconds. I don't know why you're trying to stretch this out to meet some fairly arbitrary mark, or why you need to argue about my power data based off of you reading something completely unrelated about a world tour sprinter.
09-14-18, 08:52 AM
#80
Senior Member
I've been reading a lot of posts lately about how riding with riders who are faster than you is a good way to build strength and speed. I don't disagree with this statement.
What I'm curious about, is it possible to build strength/speed doing solo rides? And can you build the strength/speed to the same extent one would by doing group rides with faster riders? Finally if so, how?
All of my riding this past summer was solo and I managed to increase my average speed from the start of the summer until the end. Mind you that could have been just my fitness going from crappy winter fitness to healthy summer fitness. And I feel I could definitely have increased my speed/strength more had I known how to train properly. Cheers.
What I'm curious about, is it possible to build strength/speed doing solo rides? And can you build the strength/speed to the same extent one would by doing group rides with faster riders? Finally if so, how?
All of my riding this past summer was solo and I managed to increase my average speed from the start of the summer until the end. Mind you that could have been just my fitness going from crappy winter fitness to healthy summer fitness. And I feel I could definitely have increased my speed/strength more had I known how to train properly. Cheers.
Numerous scientific studies have proven beyond the shadow of a doubt that riding solo at any speed, under any circumstances, does the exact opposite.
They even recommend driving to your group rides instead of pedaling there as even that small amount of solo riding will negate the rest of the group ride.
09-14-18, 08:59 AM
#81
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No. Power is the combination of body strength and aerobic capability. Yes, it could be argued that aerobic capability matters more. But strength matters and performing intervals on the bike like you did to gain sprinting speed increases your sprinting (no gym time) by increasing your body strength and aerobic capability.
I can go out on a ride and hit 500 watts about a million times, but I can't hold 500 watts for more than 3 minutes at a time. And I can't hold 400 watts for more than 10 minutes. I have plenty of strength to hit those numbers, but I can't sustain those numbers. But I know/know of dudes 15-20 lbs lighter than me can hold those numbers, despite me being "stronger" than them in any other sense you'd like to define it.
So no, it's not even an argument. It's just the fact of the matter.
09-14-18, 09:16 AM
#82
Senior Member
And to reiterate O.P.... Yes, you can get faster training solo. ;-)
09-14-18, 09:20 AM
#83
Senior Member
Road sprinting and track sprinting are not the same thing. Cavendish and Viviani are sprinters on the road. On the track they are considered Enduros. An Elite track sprinter will produce in the range of 2,200 or more Watts. I was told Chris Hoy would hit 2,600 Watts. For track sprinting at an Elite level, you have to be massively strong. To compare track and road sprinting is apples and oranges.
Just to add some levity
Just to add some levity
09-14-18, 09:40 AM
#84
In fact, I could easily tweak the algorithm of any power meter on a bike to provide real time pedal 'force' instead of wattage...a simple equation based upon cadence. Why could I do this? Because Power is a function of strength. Not solely strength, but part of the equation.
Power = Torque X RPM
Torque = F X D
Power = F X D X RPM
Power is a function of pedal force which is function of strength. A 12 y.o. girl even world class can not impart the pedal force of competitive track sprinter. The girl is weaker. The girl isn't as strong. Say it any way you like, physics don't lie. Strength matters when it comes to propelling a bike. Not overarching even. Contador may not be the strongest guy in a room of men. Yes, he has superior aerobic fitness. But he has very strong 'cycling specific' muscles. Even before cardio comes into play he can create more watts on the bike than just about any weight lifters in the gym 'his body weight'. He is stronger relative to the muscles used to propel a bicycle.
09-14-18, 09:49 AM
#86
Your inability to hold a fairly paltry wattage is not because you lack the body strength to do so and absolutely because you lack the aerobic capability to do so.
I can go out on a ride and hit 500 watts about a million times, but I can't hold 500 watts for more than 3 minutes at a time. And I can't hold 400 watts for more than 10 minutes. I have plenty of strength to hit those numbers, but I can't sustain those numbers. But I know/know of dudes 15-20 lbs lighter than me can hold those numbers, despite me being "stronger" than them in any other sense you'd like to define it.
So no, it's not even an argument. It's just the fact of the matter.
I can go out on a ride and hit 500 watts about a million times, but I can't hold 500 watts for more than 3 minutes at a time. And I can't hold 400 watts for more than 10 minutes. I have plenty of strength to hit those numbers, but I can't sustain those numbers. But I know/know of dudes 15-20 lbs lighter than me can hold those numbers, despite me being "stronger" than them in any other sense you'd like to define it.
So no, it's not even an argument. It's just the fact of the matter.
Let's talk strength. Let's compare you to Marcel Kittel. Let's stand you up next to Marcel Kittel and have a group of one hundred cyclists pick who 'looks strongest'. I bet it will 100 to 0 in favor of Marcel. Kittel isn't just a little stronger than you, he is a lot stronger. Of course he has superior cardio as well but his strength makes him a lot stronger than you in any sprint. In fact, he could likely beat you on a mountain bike with platform pedals on any sprint he is that much 'stronger'.
Great denial tho...lol.
09-14-18, 09:57 AM
#92
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As to the OP's original point, you can definitely get fast riding by yourself if you push hard enough.
Following a well thought out plan of structured intervals can actually make you faster than just doing all group rides. Using a power meter for feedback and motivation helps a lot in this regard.
Most group rides you can sit in the draft and not work at a level , or a duration you need to improve.
IMHO, the best program is a mixture of structured individual efforts, and a couple of group rides, or races each week.
Following a well thought out plan of structured intervals can actually make you faster than just doing all group rides. Using a power meter for feedback and motivation helps a lot in this regard.
Most group rides you can sit in the draft and not work at a level , or a duration you need to improve.
IMHO, the best program is a mixture of structured individual efforts, and a couple of group rides, or races each week.
Next year though with the right plan and the use of powermeter I will hopefully notice even better gains.
09-14-18, 09:57 AM
#93
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Wow, talk about minutia derailing the central question.........
The rabbithole side discussion is fascinating and engaging, but I think misses the point. Perhaps better served in the 33.
Anywhoo, I have found that my solo riding has always provided me with the most consistent gains in cycling capacity, but specific group situations have contributed to stepping up my solo riding.
Specifically, interval training 1-2 days per week. In my team's case the interval was 15 minutes on (75-90% max HR), 4 minutes off x 4. This was a long time ago (late 90's) when heart rate training was the thing (before power meters), but same idea. This combined with consistent solo riding contributed in a significant increase in my solo average speed on my typical 25-40 mile rides (from 19-20 mph to 22-23 mph). I was in my 30's at the time.
I also found that there was (is) a beneficial balance to strike between the data and your own personal situation. Some days you'll feel better than others, and I feel it is important to listen to that, and to "be OK" with an easy spin day with no STRAVA achievements. Easier said than done, of course
Other group rides or "race pace" team outings (or races) have helped with group-specific skills and testing of individual progress with others in a competitive setting.
I'm in the same boat at the moment, after having a 5 year hiatus from cycling. Gettin' back on the saddle.
Get out and ride -
The rabbithole side discussion is fascinating and engaging, but I think misses the point. Perhaps better served in the 33.
Anywhoo, I have found that my solo riding has always provided me with the most consistent gains in cycling capacity, but specific group situations have contributed to stepping up my solo riding.
Specifically, interval training 1-2 days per week. In my team's case the interval was 15 minutes on (75-90% max HR), 4 minutes off x 4. This was a long time ago (late 90's) when heart rate training was the thing (before power meters), but same idea. This combined with consistent solo riding contributed in a significant increase in my solo average speed on my typical 25-40 mile rides (from 19-20 mph to 22-23 mph). I was in my 30's at the time.
I also found that there was (is) a beneficial balance to strike between the data and your own personal situation. Some days you'll feel better than others, and I feel it is important to listen to that, and to "be OK" with an easy spin day with no STRAVA achievements. Easier said than done, of course
Other group rides or "race pace" team outings (or races) have helped with group-specific skills and testing of individual progress with others in a competitive setting.
I'm in the same boat at the moment, after having a 5 year hiatus from cycling. Gettin' back on the saddle.
Get out and ride -
09-14-18, 09:59 AM
#95
Does a heart have a muscle? What happens when a heart muscle weakens? What happens to aerobic performance with a weak heart muscle?
You know, muscles are strong or weak or in between. Can a stronger heart muscle pump more blood with the same heart stroke volume?
09-14-18, 10:04 AM
#97
Fastest pro sprinters, man versus woman? Which is 'stronger'. Heck let's take that to the track and on foot. 100 meter dash. Man versus Woman. Do their bodies look different? Which has greater muscle mass? Muscles don't matter? Can't make this up.
09-14-18, 10:06 AM
#99
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It isn't complicated if you have a physics background. I gave the definition. You dismiss it because it doesn't fit your narrative that strength doesn't matter. It does.
In fact, I could easily tweak the algorithm of any power meter on a bike to provide real time pedal 'force' instead of wattage...a simple equation based upon cadence. Why could I do this? Because Power is a function of strength. Not solely strength, but part of the equation.
Power = Torque X RPM
Torque = F X D
Power = F X D X RPM
Power is a function of pedal force which is function of strength. A 12 y.o. girl even world class can not impart the pedal force of competitive track sprinter. The girl is weaker. The girl isn't as strong. Say it any way you like, physics don't lie. Strength matters when it comes to propelling a bike. Not overarching even. Contador may not be the strongest guy in a room of men. Yes, he has superior aerobic fitness. But he has very strong 'cycling specific' muscles. Even before cardio comes into play he can create more watts on the bike than just about any weight lifters in the gym 'his body weight'. He is stronger relative to the muscles used to propel a bicycle.
In fact, I could easily tweak the algorithm of any power meter on a bike to provide real time pedal 'force' instead of wattage...a simple equation based upon cadence. Why could I do this? Because Power is a function of strength. Not solely strength, but part of the equation.
Power = Torque X RPM
Torque = F X D
Power = F X D X RPM
Power is a function of pedal force which is function of strength. A 12 y.o. girl even world class can not impart the pedal force of competitive track sprinter. The girl is weaker. The girl isn't as strong. Say it any way you like, physics don't lie. Strength matters when it comes to propelling a bike. Not overarching even. Contador may not be the strongest guy in a room of men. Yes, he has superior aerobic fitness. But he has very strong 'cycling specific' muscles. Even before cardio comes into play he can create more watts on the bike than just about any weight lifters in the gym 'his body weight'. He is stronger relative to the muscles used to propel a bicycle.
How many watts do you think Contador can put out? Seriously. How many do you think he can put out, and how many do you think your typical gym rat can put out after he's had a few attempts at clipping in and learning how to sprint?
Is this you just making up random stuff again?
I mean, I know you have a penchant for absurd assertions (pacelines without computers springs to mind), but now you really seem to be reaching.
09-14-18, 10:11 AM
#100
Senior Member
Well, yeah. I'm a cat 1. That stands to reason I'm quite a bit faster than the average cyclist. But that "strength" isn't a whole lot of strength as the word is generally used by the current population. Not many people would look at me and say "that guy's strong". In fact, I imagine most would assert the opposite. And that can be taken even further when you're talking about people actually talented at riding bikes. They can look near anorexic in comparison and certainly aren't "strong". They just produce inordinate amounts of power for their weights for extended durations.
I'm not capable of 1400 watts for 5 seconds. I don't know why you're trying to stretch this out to meet some fairly arbitrary mark, or why you need to argue about my power data based off of you reading something completely unrelated about a world tour sprinter.
I'm not capable of 1400 watts for 5 seconds. I don't know why you're trying to stretch this out to meet some fairly arbitrary mark, or why you need to argue about my power data based off of you reading something completely unrelated about a world tour sprinter.
