Weightlifting Lifting And Endurance Cycling
#26
Senior Member
I just finished Friel's Cycling Over 50 or whatever the title is. I've always had a little disagreement with his training methods because to me he seems to be a crit racer and so the most important things to him are the strength to make continuous and repeated accelerations. While I'm not a racer I think that climbing offers more than the high stress training he suggests. The normal variations on a hard climb offer more in the way of on and off efforts in my view.
But I will say that if you DO follow his training schedules you absolutely will improve your sprint and accelerations. But you must have a point of view as well. As you age your body is less strong whether you like it or not. If you do not accept that and train to hard for your capacity you will have problems and possibly serious problems. All of the fast guys in our aging group now have physical problems whereas mine are relatively light because I am not racing everywhere all the time. The fastest of the group would ride with kids because he liked to believe he was bulletproof. He now is on his second pacemaker. Another has had serious gastrointestinal damage. But they STILL want to be the first to the top of the hill. I'll just poke along as an endurance rider.
But I will say that if you DO follow his training schedules you absolutely will improve your sprint and accelerations. But you must have a point of view as well. As you age your body is less strong whether you like it or not. If you do not accept that and train to hard for your capacity you will have problems and possibly serious problems. All of the fast guys in our aging group now have physical problems whereas mine are relatively light because I am not racing everywhere all the time. The fastest of the group would ride with kids because he liked to believe he was bulletproof. He now is on his second pacemaker. Another has had serious gastrointestinal damage. But they STILL want to be the first to the top of the hill. I'll just poke along as an endurance rider.
This is absolutely terrible advice that contradicts pretty much all the current expert advice.
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What "experts" are these that give you your advice? The overwhelming medical advice from Doctors is that a brisk walk is "exercise".
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It's not settled opinion, but it is settled science. See:
https://www.bikeforums.net/training-...e-athlete.html
for more opinions and workouts.
Then see:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post17865790
for the scientific papers.
The important takeaways are
#1 don't get injured! Meaning you have to have good form and work up to it. This takes time and education.
#2 you get results by lifting heavy and using the appropriate range of motion, see the papers above. If you're doing it right as a road cyclist, you won't put on much muscle mass, just get stronger and have better endurance.
https://www.bikeforums.net/training-...e-athlete.html
for more opinions and workouts.
Then see:
https://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycl...l#post17865790
for the scientific papers.
The important takeaways are
#1 don't get injured! Meaning you have to have good form and work up to it. This takes time and education.
#2 you get results by lifting heavy and using the appropriate range of motion, see the papers above. If you're doing it right as a road cyclist, you won't put on much muscle mass, just get stronger and have better endurance.
Neither of your references came through. Though I agree with your point #1 there is definitely a limit to #2 since increased strength comes from first toning your muscles and then you have to increase their size to increase their strength. In the case of a cyclist increasing the size of muscles also increases their weight so there is a limit there as well.
Endurance cycling has a lot of limits. Most people can reach all of them save for one - oxygen intake. This is definitely a genetic gift. This is why you have perhaps 20 cyclists in the world that can win an endurance race like the Tour with anything other than luck.
#29
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What I found interesting was that Friel is recognized as an endurance coach and the book is aimed at endurance athletes. I wonder if he is an outlier amongst those in the road race, triathlete communities, or are there other coaches doing what he is doing? In the book he states, “Let’s start with physics. From that perspective, power is the product of force and velocity, and it cans be expressed with the formula power equals force times velocity:
P = F x v “
I have been under the belief that in general lifting has a negative impact on endurance athletes. However, Joe Friel seems to think different and has an impressive amount of data that uses to support his position. Doesn’t mean he is correct, but does make me pause and wonder.
#30
Senior Member
What I found interesting was that Friel is recognized as an endurance coach and the book is aimed at endurance athletes. I wonder if he is an outlier amongst those in the road race, triathlete communities, or are there other coaches doing what he is doing? In the book he states, “Let’s start with physics. From that perspective, power is the product of force and velocity, and it cans be expressed with the formula power equals force times velocity:
P = F x v “
I have been under the belief that in general lifting has a negative impact on endurance athletes. However, Joe Friel seems to think different and has an impressive amount of data that uses to support his position. Doesn’t mean he is correct, but does make me pause and wonder.
What does seem clear to me, at least, is that, from a cycling performance perspective, the decision to lift weights likely isn't a critical one. People have been successful at an elite level while lifting and others have been equally successful while abstaining.
For most of us reading this, general health should be a priority. Lifting is an excellent compliment to cycling in developing overall fitness and health.
#31
Senior Member
https://www.iflscience.com/health-an...most-a-decade/
What "experts" are these that give you your advice? The overwhelming medical advice from Doctors is that a brisk walk is "exercise".[/QUOTE]
The experts I'm referring to are the scientists who study this stuff.
https://www.businessinsider.com/best...w-aging-2018-4
https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Articl...resistUNM.html
https://www.npr.org/2011/02/21/13377...-pressing-iron
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14552938
https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity...g_stronger.pdf
I've also never seen anything that indicates strength training wears out your joints. If anything, properly programmed strength training strengthens your joints.
#32
Serious Cyclist
Works for this guy: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XweE8wFI0G0&t=814s
#33
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A lot of truth in your post. Same with some of the guys I ride with.
I don't know if you guys follow Lennard Zinn's remarkable journey to stay on the bike. He is perhaps one of the great cycling experts we have today and yet he has suffered some major health setbacks. Of course the pretty famous article about heart damage due to excessive endurance training:
VeloNews - Are endurance athletes damaging their hearts?
Zinn is a victim of this. But he has struggled with a very difficult sitbone issue as well.
Some may know as a result Zinn now rides an e-bike. He in fact makes one that is very very nice, a design I would consider in fact with custom Ti frame and Bosch 500w motor and 500W's will propel the bike to 28mph...perhaps with mild assistance...but fast enough.
https://www.velonews.com/2018/06/bik...cyclist_470738
I don't know if you guys follow Lennard Zinn's remarkable journey to stay on the bike. He is perhaps one of the great cycling experts we have today and yet he has suffered some major health setbacks. Of course the pretty famous article about heart damage due to excessive endurance training:
VeloNews - Are endurance athletes damaging their hearts?
Zinn is a victim of this. But he has struggled with a very difficult sitbone issue as well.
Some may know as a result Zinn now rides an e-bike. He in fact makes one that is very very nice, a design I would consider in fact with custom Ti frame and Bosch 500w motor and 500W's will propel the bike to 28mph...perhaps with mild assistance...but fast enough.
https://www.velonews.com/2018/06/bik...cyclist_470738
#34
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Neither of your references came through. Though I agree with your point #1 there is definitely a limit to #2 since increased strength comes from first toning your muscles and then you have to increase their size to increase their strength. In the case of a cyclist increasing the size of muscles also increases their weight so there is a limit there as well.
Endurance cycling has a lot of limits. Most people can reach all of them save for one - oxygen intake. This is definitely a genetic gift. This is why you have perhaps 20 cyclists in the world that can win an endurance race like the Tour with anything other than luck.
Endurance cycling has a lot of limits. Most people can reach all of them save for one - oxygen intake. This is definitely a genetic gift. This is why you have perhaps 20 cyclists in the world that can win an endurance race like the Tour with anything other than luck.
No, you don't have to increase the size of your muscles to increase strength. Everyone who lifts understands this. Strength comes first from fiber recruitment. The reason one must lift to failure is specifically to cause full fiber recruitment. Our muscles are designed to do as little work as possible in order to be more calorically efficient. We have to train them to achieve their full potential strength. That's the reason that in-season strength training improves cycling performance: it's necessary to keep after them to maintain strength. Increased size comes from increasing calorie intake, not simply from lifting weights.
We can't improve our genetics, however we can work to perform at our personal limits. Very few people manage to do this. While weight training won't improve VO2max, it does improve endurance. VO2max intervals improve that marker. Weight training improves endurance because of increased fiber recruitment. When more fibers are in use, each fiber does less work and is thus more slowly fatigued.
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#35
Senior Member
Watched it! (the VC episode). VC is not a pro but he’s not a wimp either (also does core body workouts!).
Jasper is a big dude, much like Sagan is. When everybody is on the limit having a few extra horsepower available in you can make a difference. It’s one of the reasons Sagan is so strong at the end of long races and can contend with and beat pure sprinters.
With Jasper’s schedule (flying from place to place) I’m amazed that he can be as dedicated to cycling/training as he is. I’m also waiting for his episode. :thumbs up:
Last edited by GreenAnvil; 10-29-18 at 10:38 AM.
#36
Serious Cyclist
What’s up, cycling fa-na-tiks!!!
Watched it! (the VC episode). VC is not a pro but he’s not a wimp either (also does core body workouts!).
Jasper is a big dude, much like Sagan is. When everybody is on the limit having a few extra horsepower available in you can make a difference. It’s one of the reasons Sagan is so strong at the end of long races and can contend with and beat pure sprinters.
With Jasper’s schedule (flying from place to place) I’m amazed that he can be as dedicated to cycling/training as he is. I’m also waiting for his episode. :thumbs up:
#37
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You imply intense exercise is a bad thing. The evidence indicates otherwise:
https://www.iflscience.com/health-an...most-a-decade/
What "experts" are these that give you your advice? The overwhelming medical advice from Doctors is that a brisk walk is "exercise".
https://www.iflscience.com/health-an...most-a-decade/
What "experts" are these that give you your advice? The overwhelming medical advice from Doctors is that a brisk walk is "exercise".
https://www.businessinsider.com/best...w-aging-2018-4
https://www.unm.edu/~lkravitz/Articl...resistUNM.html
https://www.npr.org/2011/02/21/13377...-pressing-iron
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/14552938
https://www.cdc.gov/physicalactivity...g_stronger.pdf
I've also never seen anything that indicates strength training wears out your joints. If anything, properly programmed strength training strengthens your joints.[/QUOTE]
I'm an electronics engineer who has worked in medical instrumentation most of my life. I worked on the first real heart/lung machine. I subscribe to most of the science publications and read the studies. I was fundamental in designing the laboratory instrument that used Dr. Kary Mullis' polymerase chain reaction chemistry which identified HIV as the cause of AIDS in the blood banking system. This gave him the Nobel Prize in chemistry as it should have. So I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance or from as someone that reads an article in Popular Mechanics and believes it blindly.
The levels of exercise discussed in those articles could hardly be compared to the levels that Joe Friel and others have suggested are necessary to maintain racing form. As I said they are more on the level of a brisk walk. But it is really even worse than that. Most "studies" on human health of any sort suffer from far too small a sample size and consequently pretty meaningless statistics and repeat studies do not repeat the results in more than 80% of cases. So you have to be pretty skeptical of such things. Do you think that heart attacks are only from poor living habits?
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...ge-your-heart/ Now this study is a widely based statistical study without a limited sample size. But I would also have a skeptical eye on that while at the same time knowing that it makes sense that you can over-stress any muscle in your body and your heart is the strongest of them all. This article provides several references to the studies showing these things.
But we do have multiple repeatable studies that show that lifting heavy weights (like my cousin a farmer or my brother who was a switchman on the railroad and would jump off of the cars to throw switches) CANNOT always be done carefully and correctly and inevitably damages joints. And it NEVER builds them up. While performed correctly and in perfect alignment it may not damage your joints and the increased muscle strength may increase your ability to hold these weights more carefully giving the appearance that they help (and I suppose that is a form of help) your joints all have a limited lifespan. Hell, even my friend, a retired NCIS agent, has worn out his right hip at just under 60. And it is my opinion that is because he always rides with a triple which puts his right leg at a more splayed angle. And he rides a lot. He is due for hip replacement next week I believe.
Now joint replacement is not necessarily the end of your cycling career but you have to be very careful to do ALL of the physical therapy just as advised.
But what can you say about Master's racing? If Joe Friel is finishing 2nd should you train up to beat him? That is YOUR decision.
#38
I bought the All New Cyclist’s Training Bible 5th Edition by Joe Friel. I read his 1st edition years ago and was interested in how/if he integrated power training into his original set of ideas. Reading through the book, it seems like he is a big proponent of weights to build climbing and sprinting power ( He states this on the back of the book). Chapter 12 is devoted muscular force training. His book has a rather impressive bibliography, Chapter 12 having quite a few research papers attached to it.
The Allen and Coggan book, Training With A Power Meter takes a different position. The book states that strength is not a limiter in a cyclist’s ability to produce power. The book then gives a case study of why this is so and brings up a study done in New Zealand that supports the books positon (The name of the report and the university wasn’t mentioned). The book does not have a bibliography.
All these authors are are well respected as trainers and coaches. They all have has success as coaches. To lift or not to lift doesn’t seemed to be settled science.
The Allen and Coggan book, Training With A Power Meter takes a different position. The book states that strength is not a limiter in a cyclist’s ability to produce power. The book then gives a case study of why this is so and brings up a study done in New Zealand that supports the books positon (The name of the report and the university wasn’t mentioned). The book does not have a bibliography.
All these authors are are well respected as trainers and coaches. They all have has success as coaches. To lift or not to lift doesn’t seemed to be settled science.
#39
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I just checked all my links, including the links inside those links, and they all worked on my browser. In the link to the 3rd study in my second BF link, one must page all the way to the bottom of the web page to find the link for the PDF. What difficulty did you encounter?
No, you don't have to increase the size of your muscles to increase strength. Everyone who lifts understands this. Strength comes first from fiber recruitment. The reason one must lift to failure is specifically to cause full fiber recruitment. Our muscles are designed to do as little work as possible in order to be more calorically efficient. We have to train them to achieve their full potential strength. That's the reason that in-season strength training improves cycling performance: it's necessary to keep after them to maintain strength. Increased size comes from increasing calorie intake, not simply from lifting weights.
We can't improve our genetics, however we can work to perform at our personal limits. Very few people manage to do this. While weight training won't improve VO2max, it does improve endurance. VO2max intervals improve that marker. Weight training improves endurance because of increased fiber recruitment. When more fibers are in use, each fiber does less work and is thus more slowly fatigued.
No, you don't have to increase the size of your muscles to increase strength. Everyone who lifts understands this. Strength comes first from fiber recruitment. The reason one must lift to failure is specifically to cause full fiber recruitment. Our muscles are designed to do as little work as possible in order to be more calorically efficient. We have to train them to achieve their full potential strength. That's the reason that in-season strength training improves cycling performance: it's necessary to keep after them to maintain strength. Increased size comes from increasing calorie intake, not simply from lifting weights.
We can't improve our genetics, however we can work to perform at our personal limits. Very few people manage to do this. While weight training won't improve VO2max, it does improve endurance. VO2max intervals improve that marker. Weight training improves endurance because of increased fiber recruitment. When more fibers are in use, each fiber does less work and is thus more slowly fatigued.
Also, physical therapists are educated in the way muscles work and they disagree with you. They use rather light weights and multiple repetitions.
#40
Senior Member
#41
Senior Member
I'm an electronics engineer who has worked in medical instrumentation most of my life. I worked on the first real heart/lung machine. I subscribe to most of the science publications and read the studies. I was fundamental in designing the laboratory instrument that used Dr. Kary Mullis' polymerase chain reaction chemistry which identified HIV as the cause of AIDS in the blood banking system. This gave him the Nobel Prize in chemistry as it should have. So I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance or from as someone that reads an article in Popular Mechanics and believes it blindly.
The levels of exercise discussed in those articles could hardly be compared to the levels that Joe Friel and others have suggested are necessary to maintain racing form. As I said they are more on the level of a brisk walk. But it is really even worse than that. Most "studies" on human health of any sort suffer from far too small a sample size and consequently pretty meaningless statistics and repeat studies do not repeat the results in more than 80% of cases. So you have to be pretty skeptical of such things. Do you think that heart attacks are only from poor living habits?
https://health.clevelandclinic.org/c...ge-your-heart/ Now this study is a widely based statistical study without a limited sample size. But I would also have a skeptical eye on that while at the same time knowing that it makes sense that you can over-stress any muscle in your body and your heart is the strongest of them all. This article provides several references to the studies showing these things.
But we do have multiple repeatable studies that show that lifting heavy weights (like my cousin a farmer or my brother who was a switchman on the railroad and would jump off of the cars to throw switches) CANNOT always be done carefully and correctly and inevitably damages joints. And it NEVER builds them up. While performed correctly and in perfect alignment it may not damage your joints and the increased muscle strength may increase your ability to hold these weights more carefully giving the appearance that they help (and I suppose that is a form of help) your joints all have a limited lifespan. Hell, even my friend, a retired NCIS agent, has worn out his right hip at just under 60. And it is my opinion that is because he always rides with a triple which puts his right leg at a more splayed angle. And he rides a lot. He is due for hip replacement next week I believe.
Now joint replacement is not necessarily the end of your cycling career but you have to be very careful to do ALL of the physical therapy just as advised.
But what can you say about Master's racing? If Joe Friel is finishing 2nd should you train up to beat him? That is YOUR decision.
Do you actually have any evidence that strength training "inevitably damages joints"?
Are you aware that a human body is not a car? Pretty much the entire field of exercise science is based on the principle that the body reacts to a physical stress by making the affected area stronger?
#42
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This is not always the case.
#43
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There are fast twitch and slow twitch. Fast twitch have more strength but for shorter duration. Slow twitch less strength but for longer duration. The mixture of these muscles in any group varies depending upon the area of the body they are in. You can change the composition of muscles slightly through weight training. But not by much. And we don't know about long term effects of doing this to non-skeletal muscles such as the heart.
#44
Senior Member
Friel isn't exactly cutting edge. For example, regarding weight training, he recommends heavy weights, lower reps. He explains there's a risk/reward relationship, heavy weight/low reps being the best way for master's athletes to keep valuable muscle tissue and strength, but admits there is risk involved too, risk of injury. The thing is, recent research, two different studies in fact, show that performing sets with 25 reps using lighter weights that completely exhaust the muscle at the 25th rep is just as effective in building strength and muscle as high weight/low rep sets, and it's a lot safer.
In either case, as long as you're not being an idiot, weight training is a fairly safe and healthy activity.
#45
Senior Member
I don't remember exactly where it is but he says his competitors never do more than 85%-90% of their max in training. The only time they go above that is for competitions, or in order to qualify for the competition, but in regular training he avoids lifters going to their max. Advanced training also involves "periodized" training where you cycle through different percentages of your max.
The "must lift to failure" idea is a myth...it's about as true as "red bikes are faster". ;-)
#46
Senior Member
#47
There's some debate about whether heavier weights or lighter ones are actually safer. The issue with high reps is that a person's concentration often slips as the set goes on which can cause a breakdown in form.
In either case, as long as you're not being an idiot, weight training is a fairly safe and healthy activity.
In either case, as long as you're not being an idiot, weight training is a fairly safe and healthy activity.
#48
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Did you even read any of the articles I linked?
Do you actually have any evidence that strength training "inevitably damages joints"?
Are you aware that a human body is not a car? Pretty much the entire field of exercise science is based on the principle that the body reacts to a physical stress by making the affected area stronger?
Do you actually have any evidence that strength training "inevitably damages joints"?
Are you aware that a human body is not a car? Pretty much the entire field of exercise science is based on the principle that the body reacts to a physical stress by making the affected area stronger?
#49
Senior Member
I'm thinking blood pressure. During heavy squats for instance, blood pressure can spike to 345 over 245. Aging arteries aren't as flexible, and stroke risk is higher, as well as the risk of rupturing a plaque and causing a heart attack. Lighter weights @ 25 reps is much safer.
#50
Senior Member
Can you think of any way I could prevent you from doing whatever you want or even desire to? You are free to follow your dream. Arnold Schwartzenegger can be your dream. Oh, wait, someone else said that your muscles don't grow from weight training. So I guess he was born that way and you're out of luck unless you were born that way.
If only there were a way to stop you from dispensing incorrect training advice. That has the potential to affect others.