Grant Petersen: So Fun to Read, but Rivendell Doesn't Appeal To Me
#51
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Ah, a noob comes in and starts throwing elbows. Bike Forums is back to normal. Nature is healing....
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#52
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Interesting to look at the history of bicycle design and how it effects peoples view of them.
Pre war era bicycles had a definite split between utility (Riv Aesthetic) and racing design. Most people identified with utility design.
Post war there was a marrage of utility and race design. Ride to work during the week, race or ramble on the weekend. Raleigh Clubman design and marketing as an example.
Bike boom saw a split again between utility and 10 speed race like orientation.
Lance Armstrong, popularity of TdF etc... everything has gone race design with the new split becoming between road design (race) and off road design (mtb). Utility for the road was basically dropped.
Oddly though, most of the population do not really need, or can maximize, race design. People these days who are average recreational riders are sold design and technology developed and only really helpful for road racing. Lycra kit, $300 helmets, electronic shifting, fragile sub 15lb frames, low spoke wheels, heart rate monitors, power meters, gps linked computers, CO2 cartridges, etc... Consider that most people who buy race designed bikes never enter a bicycle race.
The seduction of all modern marketing suggests: You are important.. What you do is important.. What you use is important... It's a self fulfilling positive feedback loop that ensures consumers keep buying expensive new stuff provided by manufacturers who get their new ideas from elite racing. Otherwise... If what you use isn't so important, perhaps what you are doing isn't so important and... maybe you are not so important either. Ego deflation.
Riv and GP just represent the older, well established and probably more appropriate for most, idea of the utility bike and culture. Some have a hard time with that because they are stuck in the above mentioned feedback loop and see it as being less than.
Pre war era bicycles had a definite split between utility (Riv Aesthetic) and racing design. Most people identified with utility design.
Post war there was a marrage of utility and race design. Ride to work during the week, race or ramble on the weekend. Raleigh Clubman design and marketing as an example.
Bike boom saw a split again between utility and 10 speed race like orientation.
Lance Armstrong, popularity of TdF etc... everything has gone race design with the new split becoming between road design (race) and off road design (mtb). Utility for the road was basically dropped.
Oddly though, most of the population do not really need, or can maximize, race design. People these days who are average recreational riders are sold design and technology developed and only really helpful for road racing. Lycra kit, $300 helmets, electronic shifting, fragile sub 15lb frames, low spoke wheels, heart rate monitors, power meters, gps linked computers, CO2 cartridges, etc... Consider that most people who buy race designed bikes never enter a bicycle race.
The seduction of all modern marketing suggests: You are important.. What you do is important.. What you use is important... It's a self fulfilling positive feedback loop that ensures consumers keep buying expensive new stuff provided by manufacturers who get their new ideas from elite racing. Otherwise... If what you use isn't so important, perhaps what you are doing isn't so important and... maybe you are not so important either. Ego deflation.
Riv and GP just represent the older, well established and probably more appropriate for most, idea of the utility bike and culture. Some have a hard time with that because they are stuck in the above mentioned feedback loop and see it as being less than.
Absent from this description is the massive numbers of "hybrids" that have been sold over the past few decades. The numbers of those dwarf high end road bike and Rivendell style bikes combined.
My problem with descriptions like that is they generally ignore about 80% of the market because it consists of no true Scotsmen. The vast majority of new bikes sold to adults are sub-$1000. You would never know that reading bf.
#53
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I've posted on Rivendell before.
I get parts of it. I agree that if you want a tough, practical frame for utility cycling, steel is still the way to go. I like that they've taken measures to aggressively lower their prices. I think that they offer quality, reliable stuff at a fair price: even their component choices are good compromises between cost and quality. The Rivendell aesthetic may be divisive, but at least it's distinctive and coherent. I can even understand why he advocates friction shifting, pinned flat pedals, Crocs and mustache bars, for some people that stuff makes some sense.
Then you get to the stuff I don't get. The idea that any more than seven cogs is pointless. The anti shifter/brake lever stance. The idea than anyone with their bars lower than their saddle is doing so for style purposes only. The disregard for any cycling-specific clothing. The flat labeling of anything carbon as dangerous. The insistence that clip-in pedals are stupid. Grant's belief that disc brakes, tubeless, direct mount stems... pretty much anything invented after 1979 is worthless. The tone Grant sets that anyone who likes to ride fast "just doesn't get it". The in general "my way or the highway" way of running a business. It's annoying and highly debatable.
I get parts of it. I agree that if you want a tough, practical frame for utility cycling, steel is still the way to go. I like that they've taken measures to aggressively lower their prices. I think that they offer quality, reliable stuff at a fair price: even their component choices are good compromises between cost and quality. The Rivendell aesthetic may be divisive, but at least it's distinctive and coherent. I can even understand why he advocates friction shifting, pinned flat pedals, Crocs and mustache bars, for some people that stuff makes some sense.
Then you get to the stuff I don't get. The idea that any more than seven cogs is pointless. The anti shifter/brake lever stance. The idea than anyone with their bars lower than their saddle is doing so for style purposes only. The disregard for any cycling-specific clothing. The flat labeling of anything carbon as dangerous. The insistence that clip-in pedals are stupid. Grant's belief that disc brakes, tubeless, direct mount stems... pretty much anything invented after 1979 is worthless. The tone Grant sets that anyone who likes to ride fast "just doesn't get it". The in general "my way or the highway" way of running a business. It's annoying and highly debatable.
Where I think there's a disconnect between his product line and his writing is that much of his "racing is ruining the industry" argument is based on racing mentality creating a high cost barrier to entry for consumers, and his frames being very expensive, containing esthetic features that run up the costs, but probably won't mean much to this theoretical general consumer that's being driven away. To use a car analogy, his argument is basically people are being sold finicky and expensive race cars when they should be sold more appropriate everyday use sedans, but then he builds exquisitely crafted luxury sedans that aren't really built for the general consumer. He's arguing about the entry level, but he's building for the coniseur with a definitely retro sensibility.
As to things he's said that leave me scratching my head, I'll have to paraphrase the one I found absolutely incomprehensible because I am too lazy to find the exact quote--it was something like "if you make shifting too easy, people will shift too much." I don't know what the platonic ideal number of shifts is, but I don't think anyone is spending their rides playing with their shifters because they have index shifting and STI.
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#54
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This is the difference between people who are "into" something and people who simply do something. Some years ago I read a book called Waiting For the Weekend in which the writer addressed this penchant for turning simple activities into endeavors and working at leisure.
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I think GP was prescient about some things, in particular I the idea that most people are not well served with the racing-oriented bikes that dominated “road” cycling over the past few decades.
i think Gravel bikes are moving to fill the gap that GP was talking about. Different approach, but addressing the needs.
Reading GPs stuff is what inspired me to build my first “Poor Man’s Riv” back in 2010 (Salsa Casseroll), and that really changed how I viewed road cycling.
It took another 8 years, but I have now also largely abandoned clipless after 20 years of dedicated use.
However, I love disc, and I hope to never own a threaded steerer again.
i think Gravel bikes are moving to fill the gap that GP was talking about. Different approach, but addressing the needs.
Reading GPs stuff is what inspired me to build my first “Poor Man’s Riv” back in 2010 (Salsa Casseroll), and that really changed how I viewed road cycling.
It took another 8 years, but I have now also largely abandoned clipless after 20 years of dedicated use.
However, I love disc, and I hope to never own a threaded steerer again.
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GP seems to think a bicycle needs to be a bicycle > seems like a practical idea in a world of impractical and superfluous ideas AND if his bikes are too $$$ you can enjoy "Just Ride" for under $10 on Amazon
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Absent from this description is the massive numbers of "hybrids" that have been sold over the past few decades. The numbers of those dwarf high end road bike and Rivendell style bikes combined.
My problem with descriptions like that is they generally ignore about 80% of the market because it consists of no true Scotsmen. The vast majority of new bikes sold to adults are sub-$1000. You would never know that reading bf.
My problem with descriptions like that is they generally ignore about 80% of the market because it consists of no true Scotsmen. The vast majority of new bikes sold to adults are sub-$1000. You would never know that reading bf.
My example was just a rough expression of what I see GP reacting or providing a counter balance POV to. One can expand/compare/contrast parts of it (which is fine) but I think the premise holds true. The majority voice of the industry pushes one agenda, GP in his way pushes another.
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Where I think there's a disconnect between his product line and his writing is that much of his "racing is ruining the industry" argument is based on racing mentality creating a high cost barrier to entry for consumers, and his frames being very expensive, containing esthetic features that run up the costs, but probably won't mean much to this theoretical general consumer that's being driven away. To use a car analogy, his argument is basically people are being sold finicky and expensive race cars when they should be sold more appropriate everyday use sedans, but then he builds exquisitely crafted luxury sedans that aren't really built for the general consumer. He's arguing about the entry level, but he's building for the coniseur with a definitely retro sensibility.
#59
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This is the difference between people who are "into" something and people who simply do something. Some years ago I read a book called Waiting For the Weekend in which the writer addressed this penchant for turning simple activities into endeavors and working at leisure.
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#60
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Those are some of the ideas/trains of thought that might find some seeking a simpler, user friendly approach to cycling. Conversely, some would argue that the most modern iterations of equipment are also user friendly in the sense that it is very easy to slap a credit card on the counter of an LBS to purchase parts or service. Two different ways of looking at it. Access to disposable income, and the inherent value placed on self sufficiency or ability to problem solve would tend to sway the individual. I couldn't argue one way or the other.
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#61
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I am relatively new to this forum and am a returning rider, having got my bike off the hanger in the garage last fall and got the bug this summer. I read Just Ride, having found it on Kindle. I found it enjoyable and entertaining. I learned things from it and tended to agree with his Unracer philosophy because that fits where I am at with bikes, I am never going to be a racer.I did get the impression that he was criticizing the bicycle industry for their, as we would say in the motorcycle world, race on Sunday, sell on Monday way to sell bikes. That program sells bikes and accessories, and that makes the industry go round. But, from what I see, that is not the only sales program and Petersen sells bikes that fit with his philosophy and is sometimes a rare thing in the business world.Just like the motorcycle industry, the bicycle industry has become specialized—a bike for every nitch.
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Today I finished a 440 mile tour using my Nitto Big racks I got from Riv. Worth every penny. I don’t leave home without them.
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Grant Petersen is a lightning rod in the industry. He has had and always will have his detractors. Personally, I visit the Rivendell website to look around probably once a month on average. I sometimes read the "Blug" and sometimes the "Blahg".
The thing I respect about Grant is that he is pretty transparent generally and is honest about his feelings. It seems his company is frequently on the edge of profitability and he tells it like it is. It's hard to run a business in great times, I cannot fathom the added burden placed on small business at this time.
I've never owned a Rivendell, but would love to. Let me share a quick story that happened a few years ago. I was traveling for work and had to pass through a town about 2 hours north of St. Louis. Because I knew I was headed that way I jumped on Craigslist just to see if by chance anyone that way was selling any bikes or bike parts. Kill two birds with one stone since otherwise I would have no desire to travel just for a purchase.
So as it turns out there was a fellow advertising some vintage bicycle components and some of what he displayed in the ad was of interest. I stopped in to meet him, a super-nice man, and he took me to his basement shop where he stored his bikes and bike parts. He had several very nice bikes including a custom-made tandem he and his wife rode. And among the other bikes was a Rivendell Atlantis. It was a few years old and was the first one I'd seen in person. It was gorgeous. Every detail was perfect, the lugs were beautifully done, not even a hint of any slop at the shore lines. The paint was immaculate and just the perfect colors. I was super impressed. Not many bikes have caused that sort of reaction.
The other thing I'll say is in all my years of perusing Craigslist, I have yet to find anyone selling a Rivendell. I think the owners tend to keep them and pass them down. And you can do that with a Rivendell. They may not be cheap but if you care for them they'll be around long after the carbon and even aluminum bikes. So they are an investment. Can you buy steel-framed bikes cheaper? Of course. But if you want a Rivendell, you want a Rivendell.
Some don't understand that. I do.
The thing I respect about Grant is that he is pretty transparent generally and is honest about his feelings. It seems his company is frequently on the edge of profitability and he tells it like it is. It's hard to run a business in great times, I cannot fathom the added burden placed on small business at this time.
I've never owned a Rivendell, but would love to. Let me share a quick story that happened a few years ago. I was traveling for work and had to pass through a town about 2 hours north of St. Louis. Because I knew I was headed that way I jumped on Craigslist just to see if by chance anyone that way was selling any bikes or bike parts. Kill two birds with one stone since otherwise I would have no desire to travel just for a purchase.
So as it turns out there was a fellow advertising some vintage bicycle components and some of what he displayed in the ad was of interest. I stopped in to meet him, a super-nice man, and he took me to his basement shop where he stored his bikes and bike parts. He had several very nice bikes including a custom-made tandem he and his wife rode. And among the other bikes was a Rivendell Atlantis. It was a few years old and was the first one I'd seen in person. It was gorgeous. Every detail was perfect, the lugs were beautifully done, not even a hint of any slop at the shore lines. The paint was immaculate and just the perfect colors. I was super impressed. Not many bikes have caused that sort of reaction.
The other thing I'll say is in all my years of perusing Craigslist, I have yet to find anyone selling a Rivendell. I think the owners tend to keep them and pass them down. And you can do that with a Rivendell. They may not be cheap but if you care for them they'll be around long after the carbon and even aluminum bikes. So they are an investment. Can you buy steel-framed bikes cheaper? Of course. But if you want a Rivendell, you want a Rivendell.
Some don't understand that. I do.
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Most people, including most bicyclists, might bat both eyes at complete bicycles costing over $1000. The enthusiasts and bicycling mavens who are aware (let alone care) of the existence of Grant Peterson or Rivendell Bicycles are not necessarily representative of the bicycling population outside of the insular confines of Bike Forums.
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#69
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It's a free county. All riders and bike makers can find a niche. Have not been to the site in a while. He lost me at rim brakes and 1" headtubes.
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I enjoy Riv's blug, blaug, overall ethic and reports on operation of the business; have seen several of their bikes and, while impressed by the construction, not interested in acquiring one at this time since "90's" or so steel frames are adequate now. Might purchase a couple for my wife and me at some time in the future since she likes their lines and it would be fun to try them for mild off road and.around town type use.
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Most people, including most bicyclists, might bat both eyes at complete bicycles costing over $1000. The enthusiasts and bicycling mavens who are aware (let alone care) of the existence of Grant Peterson or Rivendell Bicycles are not necessarily representative of the bicycling population outside of the insular confines of Bike Forums.
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