Calories and cycling
#176
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
No it really is that easy. Of course there are medical issues that should be taken into consideration, but for the huge majority of humanity eating less and exercising is the best way to lose weight if that is your goal. We have an obesity problem because of the amounts and types of food people choose to eat. Self control is difficult. I assure you more people have been helped through what you call moralizing than by overcomplicated, touchy-feely weight loss fads.
And winning a baseball game is as easy as scoring more runs than the other side. All that worrying about hitting, pitching and fielding is so besides the point.
The point is there's nothing simple about that when people have varying access to healthy foods, time and facilities for physical exercise, family and job commitments that pull them in different directions, varying genetic traits that make metabolizing of food a different equation for pretty much everybody, and possible physical infirmities that make both exercise and the acquisition of healthy foods difficult for people.
What you're demonstrating here is that it's possible to state the issue at such a high level of generality that it sounds simple when the issue is that there is no cookie cutter formula for how to achieve that balance that keeps a person at a healthy weight over time.
And trust me, I don't believe in "fads", touchy-feely or otherwise. I'll avoid the topic of whether I think cross-training is actually a fading fad, btw, but I think even you would have to acknowledge it isn't a good fit for everyone.
I have lost nearly half my body weight and kept it off for about 5 years now and I assure you I was never helped by anyone's moralizing. I certainly didn't do it through the use of any fad diet, I basically made up my own regimen as I saw what would actually allow me to maintain a slow but steady weight loss, then to keep it off when I actually exceeded my original weight loss goal. Frankly, I do know a fair number of people who have lost and kept off some serious amounts of weight, and I don't believe any one of them ever told me that someone scolding them about their lack of self-control was ever helpful to them. Some egoists like to think they're being helpful, I guess, but it usually is just claptrap from people who claim to have it all figured out for everyone else.
#177
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Likes For livedarklions:
#178
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
I don't recommend this method, but I had a serious health issue that resulted in a nearly complete loss of appetite. I lost more than 50 pounds in a month. (I wasn't eating at all). Now, people just tell me that I look great. No one asks if I'm OK. (I'm really not) I finally look like a cyclilst.
I had a bit of the opposite experience, my weight loss was so extreme that people were asking me if everything was ok. I'm sorry you're getting the short end of that bargain.
I just saw a documentary show (I think it was Nova) about the role of fat in health, and they did a segment on a man who had a genetic disorder that didn't allow his body to store any significant amounts of fat. Because of the lack of fat, his muscles looked huge and defined, but he actually was weak and could barely walk, both because his knees lacked fat pads and because he would get fatigued with very low levels of exertion as he had very little stored energy reserves. But he definitely looked good in a bathing suit.
#179
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,536
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,077 Times
in
2,009 Posts
#180
Senior Member
That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
#181
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,536
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,077 Times
in
2,009 Posts
For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
The state of scientific knowledge isn't based on a single study, but on many to form a consensus. That's why it's good to look for review articles that articulates the state of the science, as they synthesize their conclusions from many independent studies.
For example, the review article I linked to: Exercise Training and Fasting: Current Insights. From which I quoted: "there is little evidence to support the notion of endurance training and fasting-mediated increases in fat oxidation".
The best we can do is to make decisions based on the scientific consensus.
#182
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
You sort of contradict yourself here, but consider this a friendly correction please.
I agree that the science in this area is particularly muddy with contradictory findings all over the place. My sense is where it's leading is a notion that these things are going to need to be tailored at an individual level as people respond differently in the way things are metabolized, different levels of activity, etc. Given the amount of conflicting information about things like fasting, I think the best thing for me to do is to use the literature to suggest things I might try to see if they actually work for me. Nothing personal, but I have absolutely nothing at stake in figuring out if it will work for you, and when you say it does, I have no way of knowing if that's true or applicable to me. If I think the person might know what they're talking about, I might try something they say works for them, but that's obviously a subjective call on my part.
I'm under the impression that the more I ride over 100 miles in a day, the more fat I lose regardless of what I eat in that day, but I haven't tried to measure that and probably wouldn't care if that turned out to be wrong.
#183
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,719
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Liked 2,496 Times
in
1,287 Posts
#184
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
The problem comes in when we don't know yet what works for us. When the things that are supposed to be obvious aren't working, where do we go for ideas on what to try?
You haven't really experienced that, many of us on this thread have.
#185
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,719
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Liked 2,496 Times
in
1,287 Posts
#186
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,719
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Liked 2,496 Times
in
1,287 Posts
Knowing what works and what doesn't comes through self-experimentation and trail and error, that's the way I do it...
#187
Senior Member
Maybe I'm just a bit older and more cynical than some, but I've seen science change too much over the years to think otherwise. If there is one thing I am sure of today is that anytime anyone thinks they have it all figured out, you can be sure that they don't.
#188
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
We agree on that, it's just I had to try a lot more things than you did given that I can't "instinctively" control my caloric intake as you say you do.
Scientific literature can provide me with ideas I can try, and also warn me off of things that are proving to be downright harmful.
#189
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
in
6,791 Posts
#190
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
It works for them, or at least they believe it works. It does not mean that that's generally applicable. Scientific studies are designed to pick up the people it doesn't work for as well as the people it does.
My basic approach to this is that everything works for someone but nothing works for everybody. If I tried to do everything somebody claims works for them, I'll constantly be going nuts because the stuff is mutually contradictory.
It's not that long ago everybody was convinced the key was constant grazing on small meals throughout the day, now we're all being convinced the key is intermittent fasting, which is literally the opposite approach.
Likes For livedarklions:
#191
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
in
6,791 Posts
Which means your conclusions should be limited to yourself. An N of 1 is insufficient for making universal conclusions.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#192
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
And fasted has a different meaning to most everyone here.
Is fasted just not eating right before a ride? I do that many times with just breakfast at 6:30am and a 2 to 3 hour ride starting at noon.
Or is it a ride in that 12 to 18 hour window that some say you should go between grazing the 'fridge?
Is fasted just not eating right before a ride? I do that many times with just breakfast at 6:30am and a 2 to 3 hour ride starting at noon.
Or is it a ride in that 12 to 18 hour window that some say you should go between grazing the 'fridge?
#193
Senior Member
I can't see any reason to fast without water except for religious reasons or something related to body building competition. I have IM fasted for about 2 years because it is a weight loss and health promoting strategy that works for me. When I started 6 hours without calories was dang tough. For about a year now though I eat calories in a 4 hour window every day. I do that about 90% of the time but I'm not so religious about it that I won't eat some healthy carbs if I start lagging on a long bike ride. It's just a day to day strategy that helps me maintain a healthy body weight. I cycle every day fasted but it might only be 5-10 miles. If I do 30+ miles, you can be sure I'll eat something when I feel like I need it.
#194
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,536
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Liked 4,077 Times
in
2,009 Posts
Do as you please, of course. But science doesn't support your claims.
#195
I'm good to go!
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 16,175
Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020
Liked 5,413 Times
in
3,736 Posts
We'll not know evidently as the proponents are just arguing without defining or qualifying anything. My question wasn't answered and I don't know if one is expected to be able to hold their own against non-fasted riders they might ride with or if this is just for those that are only concentrating on weight loss above all else.
#196
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
in
6,791 Posts
That all depends on where you get your information. For every scientist with one fact. I can show you one with the opposite conclusion. Science is not the source of truth. It is simply a method of learning. Science is constantly changing it's mind because we are all constantly learning new things. The best any of us can do is to gather as much information as possible from all sources and then use our reasoning and logic to determine what is the best information for us to use.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#197
Senior Member
Be blessed ,happy and well my friend.
#198
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
We'll not know evidently as the proponents are just arguing without defining or qualifying anything. My question wasn't answered and I don't know if one is expected to be able to hold their own against non-fasted riders they might ride with or if this is just for those that are only concentrating on weight loss above all else.
With you on that. Some people consider fasting to be a multi-day event, others just mean skip a meal, and still others mean just don't eat during the ride.
I remember a thread that involved nutrition on a long ride and the answers were all over the barn. I finally realized that no one was agreeing on a definition of a "long ride". The range of rides people were talking about was something like 15 miles to over 100.
#199
Klaatu..Verata..Necktie?
Join Date: May 2007
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 19,375
Bikes: Litespeed Ultimate, Ultegra; Canyon Endurace, 105; Battaglin MAX, Chorus; Bianchi 928 Veloce; Ritchey Road Logic, Dura Ace; Cannondale R500 RX100; Schwinn Circuit, Sante; Lotus Supreme, Dura Ace
Liked 13,225 Times
in
6,791 Posts
Given that they weren't practicing the scientific method, I'm not clear why you'd refer to them as 'scientists'.
__________________
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
Likes For genejockey:
#200
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,612
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Liked 9,103 Times
in
5,054 Posts
I can't see any reason to fast without water except for religious reasons or something related to body building competition. I have IM fasted for about 2 years because it is a weight loss and health promoting strategy that works for me. When I started 6 hours without calories was dang tough. For about a year now though I eat calories in a 4 hour window every day. I do that about 90% of the time but I'm not so religious about it that I won't eat some healthy carbs if I start lagging on a long bike ride. It's just a day to day strategy that helps me maintain a healthy body weight. I cycle every day fasted but it might only be 5-10 miles. If I do 30+ miles, you can be sure I'll eat something when I feel like I need it.
I don't think anyone recommends going without water other than for religious reasons. I just developed that mental connection early--it's like you avoid the food you last ate before getting sick because you associate the food with that feeling. Generally, I'll talk about riding or working out on an empty stomach, but if I use the word "fasting", I'll psych myself out.
Not saying it's rational, it's basically Pavlovian.