What's Wrong With This Picture?
#26
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Just face the facts. The design is ignorant. The bikes are protected until every intersection, where NEITHER can see each other.
How the hell can you go 20 mph in that circumstance?? It has ZERO SAFETY. Plus granny needs to get out on the CURB.
Neither is it better where they put stupid, no right on red. Is it better to turn when bikes are moving?? WTF. I just ignored it when I was in DC.
LAB are run by imbeciles. IMO.
How the hell can you go 20 mph in that circumstance?? It has ZERO SAFETY. Plus granny needs to get out on the CURB.
Neither is it better where they put stupid, no right on red. Is it better to turn when bikes are moving?? WTF. I just ignored it when I was in DC.
LAB are run by imbeciles. IMO.
Last edited by GamblerGORD53; 09-02-21 at 02:54 PM.
#27
Does the bike lane-parking layout in NYC also include parking meters as shown in the Dayton layout?
Does any other city in the U.S. use such a non-intuitive layout, with a bike lane and a wide no-traffic lane between the parking meter and the its associated approved parking spot, with only paint (no physical barrier) to indicate the non-standard parking layout?
I can only guess how well this arrangement will work when there is any snow obscuring the painted lines.
Does any other city in the U.S. use such a non-intuitive layout, with a bike lane and a wide no-traffic lane between the parking meter and the its associated approved parking spot, with only paint (no physical barrier) to indicate the non-standard parking layout?
I can only guess how well this arrangement will work when there is any snow obscuring the painted lines.
#28
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Does the bike lane-parking layout in NYC also include parking meters as shown in the Dayton layout?
Does any other city in the U.S. use such a non-intuitive layout, with a bike lane and a wide no-traffic lane between the parking meter and the its associated approved parking spot, with only paint (no physical barrier) to indicate the non-standard parking layout?
I can only guess how well this arrangement will work when there is any snow obscuring the painted lines.
Does any other city in the U.S. use such a non-intuitive layout, with a bike lane and a wide no-traffic lane between the parking meter and the its associated approved parking spot, with only paint (no physical barrier) to indicate the non-standard parking layout?
I can only guess how well this arrangement will work when there is any snow obscuring the painted lines.
I can tell you that in New England, there's been a move away from parking meters to parking kiosks that require you to walk a half block or so to put money/cards in. People had a little trouble with them at first, but it's pretty easy once you know the rules. The problem here is these are the same parking meters in exactly the same places, so people won't get that the parking spaces moved unless it's made painfully obvious. Frankly, it looks like all it would take is for someone to park on the bicycle symbol on the road, and there would be literally no way to tell that was a bike lane.
#29
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I can tell you that in New England, there's been a move away from parking meters to parking kiosks that require you to walk a half block or so to put money/cards in. People had a little trouble with them at first, but it's pretty easy once you know the rules. The problem here is these are the same parking meters in exactly the same places, so people won't get that the parking spaces moved unless it's made painfully obvious. Frankly, it looks like all it would take is for someone to park on the bicycle symbol on the road, and there would be literally no way to tell that was a bike lane.
it’s also much for convenient for drivers to be able to pay by app, you just enter the number on the space on your phone and you’re done.
#30
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Does the bike lane-parking layout in NYC also include parking meters as shown in the Dayton layout?
Does any other city in the U.S. use such a non-intuitive layout, with a bike lane and a wide no-traffic lane between the parking meter and the its associated approved parking spot, with only paint (no physical barrier) to indicate the non-standard parking layout?
I can only guess how well this arrangement will work when there is any snow obscuring the painted lines.
Does any other city in the U.S. use such a non-intuitive layout, with a bike lane and a wide no-traffic lane between the parking meter and the its associated approved parking spot, with only paint (no physical barrier) to indicate the non-standard parking layout?
I can only guess how well this arrangement will work when there is any snow obscuring the painted lines.
When they first installed (painted?) many of these bike lanes, people still parked near the curb right in the bike lane. But people quickly learned to stop parking there; now they just obstruct them temporarily for their own convenience.
What tends to happen more often now, is that people will park in the turning lane, which completely obstructs drivers view of cyclists, and makes it hard for cyclists to see cars which causes many “oh sh*t” moments at intersections where cars and bikes are stopping short to avoid each other.
#31
Just face the facts. The design is ignorant. The bikes are protected until every intersection, where NEITHER can see each other.
How the hell can you go 20 mph in that circumstance?? It has ZERO SAFETY. Plus granny needs to get out on the CURB.
Neither is it better where they put stupid, no right on red. Is it better to turn when bikes are moving?? WTF. I just ignored it when I was in DC.
LAB are run by imbeciles. IMO.
How the hell can you go 20 mph in that circumstance?? It has ZERO SAFETY. Plus granny needs to get out on the CURB.
Neither is it better where they put stupid, no right on red. Is it better to turn when bikes are moving?? WTF. I just ignored it when I was in DC.
LAB are run by imbeciles. IMO.
Where there are parking meters for the spaces we use the muni-meters where one meter serves all the parking spaces. And now, there’s an app so you don’t even need to use any meter. Just pay from your phone. Then there are some where there are no meters.
When they first installed (painted?) many of these bike lanes, people still parked near the curb right in the bike lane. But people quickly learned to stop parking there; now they just obstruct them temporarily for their own convenience.
What tends to happen more often now, is that people will park in the turning lane, which completely obstructs drivers view of cyclists, and makes it hard for cyclists to see cars which causes many “oh sh*t” moments at intersections where cars and bikes are stopping short to avoid each other.
When they first installed (painted?) many of these bike lanes, people still parked near the curb right in the bike lane. But people quickly learned to stop parking there; now they just obstruct them temporarily for their own convenience.
What tends to happen more often now, is that people will park in the turning lane, which completely obstructs drivers view of cyclists, and makes it hard for cyclists to see cars which causes many “oh sh*t” moments at intersections where cars and bikes are stopping short to avoid each other.
And the turning lane thing is real. As are drivers turning left across the bike lane (for some reason they're mostly on the left side of the road, at least on the large north/south avenues) without checking for bikes, forcing the cyclist to hit the brakes or turn left with the car to avoid being run over.
All that said, as imperfect as the system is, people have mostly gotten used to it, and it works pretty well. It certainly works better than what we had before, which was no system at all.
#32
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I'm not so quick to say it's ignorant. I ride in lanes just like that (but in far heavier traffic) and it seems to work pretty well. Not perfectly, of course, but it seems like a pretty good way to share the limited road space available here in NYC.
Pretty much this. Vismund B lives in Queens, I live in Brooklyn, both boroughs of New York City, so it's the same system, the same Department of Transportation, for both of us. V_B is right that, for the most part, people don't park in the bike lanes, but they will stop there to take on or discharge passengers or cargo. It's annoying.
Pretty much this. Vismund B lives in Queens, I live in Brooklyn, both boroughs of New York City, so it's the same system, the same Department of Transportation, for both of us. V_B is right that, for the most part, people don't park in the bike lanes, but they will stop there to take on or discharge passengers or cargo. It's annoying.
I take it from the posts here that parking meters in Brooklyn and Queens (or anywhere else) are NOT lined up along the curb and assigned to each legitimate parking spot located on the other side of a bike lane and a no traffic separation lane, as apparently is the case in the Dayton.
It is the presence of the multiple parking meters lined up along the curb for each parking space that makes the Dayton layout a losing proposition for all concerned.
#33
It doesn't seem that the bike lane-parking situation where you live is anything like the confusing and counterintuitive layout in Dayton.
I take it from the posts here that parking meters in Brooklyn and Queens (or anywhere else) are NOT lined up along the curb and assigned to each legitimate parking spot located on the other side of a bike lane and a no traffic separation lane, as apparently is the case in the Dayton.
It is the presence of the multiple parking meters lined up along the curb for each parking space that makes the Dayton layout a losing proposition for all concerned.
I take it from the posts here that parking meters in Brooklyn and Queens (or anywhere else) are NOT lined up along the curb and assigned to each legitimate parking spot located on the other side of a bike lane and a no traffic separation lane, as apparently is the case in the Dayton.
It is the presence of the multiple parking meters lined up along the curb for each parking space that makes the Dayton layout a losing proposition for all concerned.
I don't know anything about Dayton -- maybe there's a plan to replace the meters, maybe not, I don't know. But I do like to see lanes carved out of the roads for bicycles.
#34
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Maybe there is a plan to replace the meters or erect physical barriers to prevent motor vehicles from parking alongside the meters at the curb; but until such time as that occurs, anyone expecting motorists to not notice the presence of parking meters alongside the curb and to ignore the standard parking procedure in their presence throughout the U.S and elsewhere, may be smoking something funny, under the influence, or may be even considered ignorant in some quarters.
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#35
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The Dayton layout was the subject of the OP and was described there.
Maybe there is a plan to replace the meters or erect physical barriers to prevent motor vehicles from parking alongside the meters at the curb; but until such time as that occurs, anyone expecting motorists to not notice the presence of parking meters alongside the curb and to ignore the standard parking procedure in their presence throughout the U.S and elsewhere, may be smoking something funny, under the influence, or may be even considered ignorant in some quarters.
Maybe there is a plan to replace the meters or erect physical barriers to prevent motor vehicles from parking alongside the meters at the curb; but until such time as that occurs, anyone expecting motorists to not notice the presence of parking meters alongside the curb and to ignore the standard parking procedure in their presence throughout the U.S and elsewhere, may be smoking something funny, under the influence, or may be even considered ignorant in some quarters.
Parking meters? Check.
Ignoring "standard parking procedures?" Check.
In the U.S? Boston, Check.
195 Beacon St - Google Maps
It took a few weeks to get used to. But people got used to it before the flexposts, but the flexposts really helped too. (But we do have a brief problem during move-in every year, but that's almost over for another year.)
Oh ye of little faith in humanity.
p.s. We also have snow, and humanity still gets it right. And there are no flexposts in the winter.
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 09-03-21 at 02:27 PM.
#36
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Who is smoking, who is under the influence, and who is ignorant?
Parking meters? Check.
Ignoring "standard parking procedures?" Check.
In the U.S? Boston, Check.
195 Beacon St - Google Maps
It took a few weeks to get used to. But people got used to it before the flexposts, but the flexposts really helped too. (But we do have a brief problem during move-in every year, but that's almost over for another year.)
Oh ye of little faith in humanity.
p.s. We also have snow, and humanity still gets it right. And there are no flexposts in the winter.
-mr. bill
Parking meters? Check.
Ignoring "standard parking procedures?" Check.
In the U.S? Boston, Check.
195 Beacon St - Google Maps
It took a few weeks to get used to. But people got used to it before the flexposts, but the flexposts really helped too. (But we do have a brief problem during move-in every year, but that's almost over for another year.)
Oh ye of little faith in humanity.
p.s. We also have snow, and humanity still gets it right. And there are no flexposts in the winter.
-mr. bill
I can't tell from the picture, but are there signs there in addition to the flexposts? What I found surprising about the Dayton setup was that they really don't seem to have put up any signs about where the parking is now, just relied on people figuring out the painted boxes in the street.
I have faith in humanity's ability to learn the new arrangement, but you do have to put at least some effort into teaching it to them. Nothing above the surface of the road is just not enough notice.
#37
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Who is smoking, who is under the influence, and who is ignorant?
Parking meters? Check.
Ignoring "standard parking procedures?" Check.
In the U.S? Boston, Check.
195 Beacon St - Google Maps
It took a few weeks to get used to. But people got used to it before the flexposts, but the flexposts really helped too. (But we do have a brief problem during move-in every year, but that's almost over for another year.)
Oh ye of little faith in humanity.
p.s. We also have snow, and humanity still gets it right. And there are no flexposts in the winter.
-mr. bill
Parking meters? Check.
Ignoring "standard parking procedures?" Check.
In the U.S? Boston, Check.
195 Beacon St - Google Maps
It took a few weeks to get used to. But people got used to it before the flexposts, but the flexposts really helped too. (But we do have a brief problem during move-in every year, but that's almost over for another year.)
Oh ye of little faith in humanity.
p.s. We also have snow, and humanity still gets it right. And there are no flexposts in the winter.
-mr. bill
#38
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Yeah, I'm sure the Boston drivers have legal parking and not ever blocking bike lanes down pat, don't know why there was ever any need to install flex posts for such clever and considerate drivers since they figured it all out (got used to it) on this street without them.
I've ridden on bike lanes in Boston. People don't park in them much to my knowledge. There's a lot of screwing with the flexposts though.
No idea why you think the sarcasm is appropriate. He's saying there were a few weeks of confusion. You're not claiming that people can never learn the new arrangement, are you? That would be silly.
The one difference between Dayton and Boston in this regard is that the bike lanes appear to be much better marked in Boston. Signs are important. Pavement paint is almost useless, especially when winter takes the paint off every year.
Last edited by livedarklions; 09-04-21 at 04:43 AM.
#39
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I've ridden on bike lanes in Boston. People don't park in them much to my knowledge. There's a lot of screwing with the flexposts though.
No idea why you think the sarcasm is appropriate. He's saying there were a few weeks of confusion. You're not claiming that people can never learn the new arrangement, are you? That would be silly.
The one difference between Dayton and Boston in this regard is that the bike lanes appear to be much better marked in Boston. Signs are important. Pavement paint is almost useless, especially when winter takes the paint off every year.
No idea why you think the sarcasm is appropriate. He's saying there were a few weeks of confusion. You're not claiming that people can never learn the new arrangement, are you? That would be silly.
The one difference between Dayton and Boston in this regard is that the bike lanes appear to be much better marked in Boston. Signs are important. Pavement paint is almost useless, especially when winter takes the paint off every year.
#40
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What is silly is for someone to rant about ignorant motorists as the cause of the parking "confusion" seen in the introduction of an entirely new and unusual parking arrangement in Dayton that was still lacking the marking, warning signs, flex posts or other accoutrements necessary for the proper use of this confusing parking/driving arrangement. Obviously Boston found it necessary to make adjustments like installing flex posts to their layout because it was not working that well without them.
You AND Op both went over the top with the ignorant rhetoric just in opposite directions. I think we disposed of blame the ignorant drivers stuff at about post 2. Mr. Bill certainly said nothing of the kind and neither did I.
#41
You AND Op both went over the top with the ignorant rhetoric just in opposite directions. I think we disposed of blame the ignorant drivers stuff at about post 2. Mr. Bill certainly said nothing of the kind and neither did I.
#42
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But after driving and curb parking for decades it will be hard to change peoples habits. IMO poor planning and design.
#43
Full Member
Yeah, it's counterintuitive to think you'd park way out from the curb. And especially if uncertain, a person's probably going to play it safe rather than risk getting a ticket (or their car hit) by possibly parking "in the road." I mean, I get why they did it that way, but it's going to feel very awkward as a driver putting your car way out from the curb and hoping you're right that that's a parking space. They need better signage?
#45
Newbie
Plenty of people are seriously ignorant, but some of them are also hostile.
#46
What a bizarre system
"Counterintuitive" is an understatement. The bike lanes should be adjacent to vehicle traffic, not between parked cars and the curb. This way, people have to exit cars and walk across the lane where bicycles are whizzing by, to get to the curb. I expect lawsuits arising from the big safety risk to children and to elderly and disabled passengers.
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#47
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"Counterintuitive" is an understatement. The bike lanes should be adjacent to vehicle traffic, not between parked cars and the curb. This way, people have to exit cars and walk across the lane where bicycles are whizzing by, to get to the curb. I expect lawsuits arising from the big safety risk to children and to elderly and disabled passengers.
Yeah, no. Getting caught between the line of parked cars and fast-moving cars on a bike is definitely a lot more dangerous than exiting a parked car several feet away from a bike lane. You get out of the car, stand on the diagonal line until you see that there's no bike coming, and then cross the lane. What's the problem?
Also, most people get out of the car on the driver's side, so if the bike lane is between the parking lane and the traffic lane, most people exiting the car will be stepping right into the bike lane.
#48
#49
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You realize how far that puts the bike lane out into the street? At that point, there's no reason to have the bike lane.
Anyway, that makes no sense. If the safety zone is adequate on the driver's side, why isn't it adequate on the passenger side?
#50
Car passengers who will be getting out of the curb side of the car on city streets include small children, the elderly, and the disabled, whom you won't find on bicycles in this environment. The Dayton system places their needs far behind those of bicyclists'. Think of a blind person, or one in a wheelchair, having to get out of the car and then cross between the gaps in bicycles, rather than having direct access to the sidewalk. I know my elderly mother-in-law, who has all her senses but walks very slowly and has issues with balance, would be terrified. She just wouldn't go downtown.
Yes, it would be lovely if every road could have a truly separated bicycle lane, but that's not realistic - there generally isn't room (or funding). In the Dayton situation apparently they decided there was both, but I think they got their priorities wrong.