What's Wrong With This Picture?
#51
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"Counterintuitive" is an understatement. The bike lanes should be adjacent to vehicle traffic, not between parked cars and the curb. This way, people have to exit cars and walk across the lane where bicycles are whizzing by, to get to the curb. I expect lawsuits arising from the big safety risk to children and to elderly and disabled passengers.
cycle tracks / bike lanes are safer when buffered from traffic, preferably by an island but parking also works, provided adequate clearances. bike lanes between parking and traffic are crossed by everyone who needs to park, and routinely double parked in for motorists convenience. much, much harder to do when the bike lane is inboard of the parking. finally, depending on the destination, either the majority or vast majority of cars only have a driver, not a driver and a passenger, reducing the bike-lane-side conflict measurably. the problems with the dayton design are in the details, not the concept.
obviously, a street with no parking and fully separated bike and vehicular lanes would be preferable in some ways - but the traffic calming effects of parking and loading should also be considered.
a lot of american cities have these bike lanes, which are a bit of a compromise but a big jump in safety from sharrows or a bike line with driver-side-doors on one side and moving traffic on the other. they work pretty well, even in this example with standard parking meters rather than kiosks. the parking zone also makes a nice space for bike share infrastructure out of the way of the sidewalk.
#52
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how safe is the "safety lane" if every car parking or exiting the parking has to cross it? and even worse, unlike driveways or intersections, parallel parking requires coming to a complete stop, and then reversing.
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#53
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no.
cycle tracks / bike lanes are safer when buffered from traffic, preferably by an island but parking also works, provided adequate clearances. bike lanes between parking and traffic are crossed by everyone who needs to park, and routinely double parked in for motorists convenience. much, much harder to do when the bike lane is inboard of the parking. finally, depending on the destination, either the majority or vast majority of cars only have a driver, not a driver and a passenger, reducing the bike-lane-side conflict measurably. the problems with the dayton design are in the details, not the concept.
obviously, a street with no parking and fully separated bike and vehicular lanes would be preferable in some ways - but the traffic calming effects of parking and loading should also be considered.
a lot of american cities have these bike lanes, which are a bit of a compromise but a big jump in safety from sharrows or a bike line with driver-side-doors on one side and moving traffic on the other. they work pretty well, even in this example with standard parking meters rather than kiosks. the parking zone also makes a nice space for bike share infrastructure out of the way of the sidewalk.
cycle tracks / bike lanes are safer when buffered from traffic, preferably by an island but parking also works, provided adequate clearances. bike lanes between parking and traffic are crossed by everyone who needs to park, and routinely double parked in for motorists convenience. much, much harder to do when the bike lane is inboard of the parking. finally, depending on the destination, either the majority or vast majority of cars only have a driver, not a driver and a passenger, reducing the bike-lane-side conflict measurably. the problems with the dayton design are in the details, not the concept.
obviously, a street with no parking and fully separated bike and vehicular lanes would be preferable in some ways - but the traffic calming effects of parking and loading should also be considered.
a lot of american cities have these bike lanes, which are a bit of a compromise but a big jump in safety from sharrows or a bike line with driver-side-doors on one side and moving traffic on the other. they work pretty well, even in this example with standard parking meters rather than kiosks. the parking zone also makes a nice space for bike share infrastructure out of the way of the sidewalk.
I prefer bike lanes between parked cars and the curb. The worse that can happen is you smash into a passenger getting out of the car without looking.
Whereas if the car has to cross the bike lane to park, the risk is if the driver is racing you and cuts you off or if he parallel parks, you're forced into car traffic to get by.
#54
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My concern is the ability of passengers getting out of cars to be able to reach the sidewalk safely, without crossing any moving traffic - including bicycle traffic. The safety zone between the car and the bike lane, on either side of the car, provides a buffer so the car door isn't opened in the bicycles' way, providing a degree of safety for both; if it's on the driver's side but the car is parked against the curb, the driver can then walk around the car to the curb without crossing traffic.
Car passengers who will be getting out of the curb side of the car on city streets include small children, the elderly, and the disabled, whom you won't find on bicycles in this environment. The Dayton system places their needs far behind those of bicyclists'. Think of a blind person, or one in a wheelchair, having to get out of the car and then cross between the gaps in bicycles, rather than having direct access to the sidewalk. I know my elderly mother-in-law, who has all her senses but walks very slowly and has issues with balance, would be terrified. She just wouldn't go downtown.
Yes, it would be lovely if every road could have a truly separated bicycle lane, but that's not realistic - there generally isn't room (or funding). In the Dayton situation apparently they decided there was both, but I think they got their priorities wrong.
Car passengers who will be getting out of the curb side of the car on city streets include small children, the elderly, and the disabled, whom you won't find on bicycles in this environment. The Dayton system places their needs far behind those of bicyclists'. Think of a blind person, or one in a wheelchair, having to get out of the car and then cross between the gaps in bicycles, rather than having direct access to the sidewalk. I know my elderly mother-in-law, who has all her senses but walks very slowly and has issues with balance, would be terrified. She just wouldn't go downtown.
Yes, it would be lovely if every road could have a truly separated bicycle lane, but that's not realistic - there generally isn't room (or funding). In the Dayton situation apparently they decided there was both, but I think they got their priorities wrong.
Sorry, but this is complete nonsense. Crossing a bike lane just isn't dangerous.
#55
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The Dayton layout was the subject of the OP and was described there.
Maybe there is a plan to replace the meters or erect physical barriers to prevent motor vehicles from parking alongside the meters at the curb; but until such time as that occurs, anyone expecting motorists to not notice the presence of parking meters alongside the curb and to ignore the standard parking procedure in their presence throughout the U.S and elsewhere, may be smoking something funny, under the influence, or may be even considered ignorant in some quarters.
Maybe there is a plan to replace the meters or erect physical barriers to prevent motor vehicles from parking alongside the meters at the curb; but until such time as that occurs, anyone expecting motorists to not notice the presence of parking meters alongside the curb and to ignore the standard parking procedure in their presence throughout the U.S and elsewhere, may be smoking something funny, under the influence, or may be even considered ignorant in some quarters.
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#56
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#57
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No doubt that some people proud of being openly hostile to cyclists would describe (and perhaps even post on social media) thoughtful cyclists who ride in travel lanes despite the presence of adjacent parallel bike lanes, regardless of legality or reason, as "ignorant" cyclists.
#58
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This is the kind of thing that makes me skeptical of bike lanes generally. There's always somewhere where the "protection" breaks down and I think it's too easy to cruise fast past that driveway and not even realize it's there.
#59
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No doubt that some people proud of being openly hostile to cyclists would describe (and perhaps even post on social media) thoughtful cyclists who ride in travel lanes despite the presence of adjacent parallel bike lanes, regardless of legality or reason, as "ignorant" cyclists.
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Which apparently means that "thoughtful cyclists" are unaffected no matter how the so-called ignorant motorists of Dayton park on the streets described in the OP.
#61
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I didn't say or imply that. I'm definitely in favor of enforcing the rules against parking in the bike lane, I'm just not sure that having bike lanes at all is better than not having them. The worst is having bike lanes where the enforcement is unpredictable. That combines the expectation that's where the bikes go with a condition that makes it impossible for the bikes to go there.
#62
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I'm not too particular on bike lane design; however, I will say that having a bike lane does, at least, give us cyclists a little more real estate. Most the roads around here have bike lanes and all new constructions get them, but there are a few hold outs.
This is one example of a road I ride every day (Mayport Rd) that has a speed limit of 45-mph (we all know that no one drives at the speed limit). Just today a little girl was apparently hit on this road, the story gives no details, but I'm looking into it. A simple bike lane would help.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/artic...1-87593ecd7d9f
This is one example of a road I ride every day (Mayport Rd) that has a speed limit of 45-mph (we all know that no one drives at the speed limit). Just today a little girl was apparently hit on this road, the story gives no details, but I'm looking into it. A simple bike lane would help.
https://www.firstcoastnews.com/artic...1-87593ecd7d9f
#63
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You are right, I meant to quote Noisebeam's post about "thoughtful cyclists" who choose not to ride in an area designated for their use, and of course reference the OP, my mistake.
Last edited by I-Like-To-Bike; 09-08-21 at 03:59 PM.
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#64
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I live near this type of bike lane situation. I frequently park my car in parking spaces just like that. I have two young children and a spouse. When we park there I try not to open the rear door al the way as I’m fastening / unfastening their car seats. I always am there to make sure it’s clear for them to run to the sidewalk and wait for me or to get into the car. For the most part any bikers that happen to be passing during this time tend to slow down. The only time I’ve had a close call was 2 times with wrong way riders.
I have also been teaching my children that they must treat the bike lane like a car lane and look both ways every time that they must pass it. I repeat it each time we pass the bike lane.
I find that it’s much much scarier to exit the vehicle from the drivers side / drivers side rear. There is not much buffer between the parked cars and the moving cars. And people are always speeding.
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It’s not perfect, but how else would you propose a car turn across a bike lane? Just outlaw driveways or intersections? I ride these lanes all the time both with my kids and by myself, and haven’t had a problem in thousands of miles. Not perfect. But much better than a bike lane between parked cars and traffic, or no bike lane at all.