tdrich07

I'm fairly new to all of this, but really enjoying learning. I've picked up a few older bikes here and there in an effort to figure out what suits me and my local terrain. I started out trying out some of the famed older Trek MTBs, but eventually came across an old Bianchi Tangent for relatively cheap, their short-lived cyclocross model in between the Equinox and the Axis around 1990. I instantly loved everything about it compared to the MTBs - the larger wheels, the drop bars, the lightweight frame, the speed, and the apparently polarizing Suntour Command butterfly shifters. Since then, I've been on the look out for any bikes I could potentially convert into something similar.

The other day I picked up a Trek 600 Series which I've fallen in love with (I don't know if I can post links yet but the bike did make an appearance in the Craigslist finds thread recently). The Tangent is cool with its funky neon/late 80s design, but it's nothing compared to the beauty of this Trek. And to my delight I was able to squeeze a 700c/38" tire on there without issue. So, being pretty new to this, I'm looking for some advice building it up into a dirt-road machine.

For proper context, I live on a dirt road with a lot of hills around me. I need the wider tires, and a low gear for climbing the steep hills is a must. So the triple crankset has always been a must in my mind, and I'm likely looking at new rear cogs as well considering it's currently only got 6 speeds there currently. I love my suntour command shifters, but I've been pretty interested in brifters because I don't love the friction shifting on the FD which seems to need to be put in just the right spot to have no rub. I've tried bar-end shifters and they are a big step below the butterfly type for me. I haven't even really attempted the downtube shifters currently on it but I don't think I'm too keen on keeping that setup. Scoping out parts for a 3x7ish drivetrain with brifters is leading to some potential issues. The triple crank leads me more towards a mountain bike FD, and there seems to be some debate about how brifters might work there with some preference for just sticking with the friction shifters.

Anyways, before I go on too long, I'm just looking for some general advice from those who may have been here before. Am I barking up the wrong tree? Are brifters a bad idea for this set up? Is anyone appalled by what I'm suggesting here? Anything easy I'm missing? Should I just find a different bike? I'll be appreciative any insight or words of wisdom I can get.

non-fixie 

Shimano front derailleurs for road and mountain differ in terms of cable pull needed, so using road brifters with an MTB FD will not work well, if at all. Find a road triple FD, and you'll be fine.

There are, however, a couple of other solutions. One is to use a compact double chain ring. Not perfect, but less of a problem than with a triple. This is my cheapo 'gravel bitsa':



The solution I like best is to use Campagnolo brifters. The left uses a ratcheting system rather than index, and will consequently work with pretty much any FD. I use this on several bikes, like this touring bike. Be aware that, to combine Campagnolo and Shimano successfully in the rear, you need to abide by the Shimergo Rules.

bikemig 

Easy to spread the rear triangle to 130 OLD and run a modern gearing set up with 650b wheels. I know you dissed bar ends but that is my preference. My gravel bike is a drop bar conversion stump jumper with bar ends and 3 x 7 gearing.

The Golden Boy 

The 600 series bikes straddled the upper mid level/lower high end range of "sport" and "racing" bikes. If it says "600 series" on the top tube in script, it'll be an 84 or 85. Until 1985, a 600 series bike is going to have a Reynolds 531 frame with the stays and fork made from CrMo or some Mn alloy (depending on model and year). There were later 600 series bikes that were made from TrueTemper CrMo.

Since you mentioned the Bianchi Tangent- I just decided to take a peek- man, those and the Equinox look like OUTRAGEOUSLY COOL bikes.

Regarding your ideas for it... The whole rebuilding bikes game is if you change one thing- you have to change 4 other things to get that first thing to work... it's never just as simple as swapping out a part... 600 series bikes are great bikes, and if you have a frame that has the clearance you need, and it rides how you want it to ride- this is the perfect bike- I have had several bikes with Command Shifters, I have had only one bike with brifters and indexed front shifting- but that bike did have a triple- I absolutely hated the shifting on the FD- there were 4 indexes for a triple- and no way to trim. I'm really glad you got 38s to fit- so it sounds like bare 38s or 32/35 + fenders is about the limit- I have 35s and Honjo fenders on my 1985 620 and it "works" but it's too tight, but 35s and SKS fenders and it's OK.

My experience with brifters leads me to prefer friction front shifting- however you want to get that done- some people actually have brifters on the bike, use the right for rear indexed shifting and the front done either with a bar end or DT shifter.

Command Shifters are the cat's pyjamas- but you're sort of stuck with Accushift unless you want to go to 10 speed- you can get an indexing plate to configure them to Shimano 10 speed which I have running on 2 bikes. There's also people that have removed the indexing balls out of the shifter and run them friction- I haven't done that- too bad Command Shifters came out after Shimano's "indexing/friction switch" lawsuit.

Here's a link to my Flickr page with a couple builds of my 620- it's more "tour" than "gravel." FWIW- I'm not sold on the wide range double. Some day when I re-do it, it'll be something like a 48-38-28 triple.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/151917...h/52059917884/

IMG_1737 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr

IMG_1721 by Dave The Golden Boy, on Flickr



And the link to my 720 Flickr page: https://www.flickr.com/photos/151917...57688969696952

52telecaster

Not sure that what I do with old treks would be considered gravel specific but my take on the projects are to stay with freewheels which also means half step and granny if you want really wide range yet reasonable steps for long trips. While this sounds ancient, 5-6 speeds makes friction shifting real easy. I use barcons which you don't want but there are other solutions. The main thing is that 600 series frameset is great.

bikemig 

mtb style 3 x 7 gives you crossover gearing and a nice range. I’m running the stock gearing on my stumpy: 46/36/24 rings and an 11-28 7 speed cassette. You likely can’t find an 11-28 freewheel though.

Dfrost 

Sounds like you have the perfect bike for your desires in that Trek 600! Lots of folks around C&V have used that as a brilliant base for their bikes.

I’m surprised to be the first to link this extreme long and popular thread about “retro-modding” older bikes like yours with brifters.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...i-s-ergos.html

FWIW, I’ve retromodded a ‘79 Miyata 912, bought new back then, with triple rings and brifters, And I’m pretty sure my “new” bike, the ‘87 Marinoni Sports Tourer, didn’t gain those features until my ownership that started in 2013.

It’s great that you can already clear decently fat 700’s, but another approach already mentioned would be a 650B conversion that would be even better in your unpaved situations. Many are shown here:

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...nversions.html

I use that Marinoni with either 700x32’s or 650Bx38’s (sometimes with fenders; 42’s fit without fenders).

Dont hesitate to ask for advice or parts around here. Be sure to subscribe so that you can use that C&V Sales sub-forum with the latter.

tdrich07

Nice looking bikes! I think that second one is probably exactly what I'm looking to accomplish - triple crank with brifters. I guess only time will tell if going with brifters for the FD will be worth it - I suppose worst case is I can always put a barcon shifter on just that side as mentioned down-thread. The world of front derailleurs seems to be a large space, but with only a few options that actually fit what I want. Any advice for a reasonably priced (ideally less than $25 shipped) triple road FD that's a 26.8 clamp on bottom pull and will work with Shimano brifters? I had originally ordered a Deore MT-60 but it sounds as if I'll have to use that elsewhere. Every time I think I've found a decent option it's either a MTB offering or top pull or something of that sort. I was hoping to get something above Acera or Sora but it seems something like that may be my best option.

tdrich07

Not trying to hate on the bar end shifters, I just find them a bit awkward to use. Maybe I've just been spoiled by my Command shifters, which is probably less than ideal considering they are quite cost prohibitive.

I think I've seen this option of spreading the rear triangle before, but never really understood what it meant. So it allows me to run different wheels/more modern gearing? And by more modern gearing you mean less gears in the front and more in the rear? I've seen that option, and given that most of my shifting trouble to date has been with the FD I can see the appeal, however I also like the cost savings of old parts and the range of many gears. I think I wouldn't mind at all a double crank with something like the two lowest gears from a triple crank, but from what I've read I think I would still need a triple FD to make that work.

Nice looking stump jumper by the way, that thing is clean!

tdrich07

My bike says 600 series and I believe it is a 1985 - it looks very similar to yours except it is a lighter blue color. Quite magnificent bikes. And yeah, I really love my Tangent, they are awesome bikes. I happened to get lucky enough one showed up about an hour and a half away for less than $100 and I couldn't be more thrilled. I'm just waiting to get something close to it to ride so I can dismantle it and really get it in top shape - it needs some work as it is.

I'm definitely starting to become more aware of the pitfalls of swapping out components. It seems like everything should fit together until you learn it doesn't. I'm a huge fan of the Command shifters, but not sure I want to shell out $100 bucks every time I want to put them on a bike. Maybe if I find a setup I think I've really nailed otherwise I will pull the trigger on another set. I think I may try out the brifters, and if the front gives me issues I can always throw a barcon on that side like you suggested, however odd that may look.

Awesome looking bikes, by the way!

tdrich07

Simplifying the shifting definitely is appealing to me, but reading up on the half-step gearing I'm not sure it makes a ton of sense for me. Hills are more my norm rather than an occasional obstacle. I'm thinking while it may be nice to really pick up speed sometimes, if I'm going for distance I'll mostly be climbing up hills or cruising down the other side.

tdrich07

This sounds ideal to me, the challenge will just be making it work with a road/brifters setup. From what I've read about freewheels versus cassettes I'm thinking my best bet is just going to be using a different set of wheels (I do have some extra more modern 700c ones I've already acquired)?

non-fixie 

I am not all that familiar with Shimano's product history and specifications, but I believe the oldest groups that had the FD you are looking for are RSX, Sora and Tiagra.

Dfrost 

Any of those should work fine with Shimano brifters, and there’s nothing wrong with them. There’s essentially no change in shifting quality between them. I’d chose any of those older versions over a newer Shimano that demands certain middle-large ring spacing.

OTOH, when my son’s front Dura-Ace brifter quite working, we just put a DT front shifter on the existing boss. Worked fantastically since front shifts happen much less often than rear shifts, and are quite predictable - middle ring for most roads, small ring (if you’re using a triple) for steep uphills, big ring for long downhills (or strong tailwinds). With that arrangement, any front derailleur works fine. The DT front shifter approach is less ideal with half-step gearing where front shifts are much more frequent.

Spreading the rear triangle to 130mm is quite DIY-able with a steel bike like the Trek 600. I had the Miyata 912’s rear triangle spread professionally. I didn’t yet know about Sheldon Brown’s comprehensive website with its good instructions, long considered one of the great bicycling mechanics’ resources, worth bookmarking to answer many questions that will come up.

https://www.sheldonbrown.com

With a 130mm rear triangle, you’ll then be able to easily use many more modern wheels, or more specifically cassettes. OTOH, lots of C&V folks will simply spread by hand the rear to install such a wheel. Cassette, rather than freewheel, rear hub axles are much stronger at 130mm and 8+ speeds in back, due to superior bearing support on the DS. They’ll be a whole lot easier to find (or use what you have) and change gearing you’d like.

tdrich07

Now that I'm allowed to post again...(apparently I was spamming too much as a new member)...

I've looked into this 650b conversion a little bit, but could you explain why this is such a better option? I understand that I could get wider tires with that setup, and possibly more gears, but from what I can see it would also be way more money. Searching for 650b wheels mostly comes up with few options other than new ($$$), and I think sourcing the parts to make this conversion work would also be a fairly big expense. If it's night and day difference then perhaps it makes sense, or maybe I'm also misrepresenting the cost difference between the two setups.

non-fixie 

650B is very much en vogue. Combine that with a limited availability of used 650B wheelsets and reasonably-priced tires, and you'll see why it is not the cheapest option. While there are undoubtedly advantages, such as the ability to fit a wider tire, there are also disadvantages. Bigger wheels roll over obstacles easier, and - important to me anyway - look better in large frames. I generally ride 62-64 cm frames and have actually built a couple of bikes with 27" wheels just because they looked just a bit nicer than 700C.

Dfrost 

[MENTION=173992]non-fixie[/MENTION] sums up 650B pretty well. For me, it was the means to use fat tires at significantly lower pressures, and gain room for fenders while my dedicated fender bike (the Miyata) was down for it’s Gugificazione modifications. BTW, “more gears” would be the result of the 130mm rear triangle, hence ability to use an 8/9/10-speed rear wheel, not the 650B conversion. And I’ll admit that it took a while to get use to the visual change of the smaller wheels on my also-big frames.

Too many pictures of both variations:
https://dfrost.smugmug.com/Bicycles/Davids-Bicycles/

The fat tires and lower pressures (38’s at 40-50 psi, versus 32’s at 65-75) are noticeably nicer on crappy pavement and unpaved conditions. Wheel cost was offset by building them myself, which I enjoy, and the longer reach caliper brakes were purchased at a discount. In the long run, I essentially gained another bike for just the cost/space of another pair of wheels, while our living situation dictates no more than we currently own.

FWIW, I’ve been using the Marinoni in 650B guise for most of this year because I find it a bit more relaxing to ride. I might switch it back to 700C in another month, or maybe not. My old and replaced hips also find the lower standover easier to enter/exit.

For what the OP wants to do, they probably don’t make much sense, at least initially.

Pompiere

As I understand it, when using a 650b wheel on a bike that had previously used 700, you can use a wider tire but keep approximately the same overall diameter. By using the smaller 650b rim, the fattest part of the tire ends up at the widest gap in the frame. So the benefit is you may fit a wider tire than was possible than with 700 rims. Also, since you are not increasing the overall diameter, brake clearance isn't an issue either. Older bikes tended to have a lot of clearance, so there is not as much advantage to 650b.

Dfrost 

A slight (but important) correction: You should look for front derailleurs with a 28.6mm clamp (not 26.8 as mentioned in Post #8). As mentioned previously, you could ask with a WTB in the C&V Sales sub-forum and get lots of possibilities.

tdrich07

Yes, good catch. Fortunately 26.8 isn't a thing (I don't think at least) so when I inevitably screw it up it shouldn't burn me too bad

tdrich07

As for my build plans, I found a nice set of 650b wheels at a good price so I think I'm going to snag them in case I want to go that route on this or another bike. However I have another bike with a very generic aluminum frame I've already started tearing down that was equipped with 8 SPD Shimano Sora components/brifters and a triple crank so I think I may just switch all those parts over to the Trek and see how I like it. I think I even should be able to use the wheels from my Tangent to give it a test run (it's a 7 SPD cassette but I've heard that should work). Not my ideal components for the bike long term, and I may even go with a nicer RD since I have a couple laying around, but it should allow me to see how I like that kind of setup overall before really investing in it or doing something more permanent like widening the rear.

tdrich07

And before I forget, here's a picture now that I'm finally allowed to post them. It's from before I bought it. I'd post a better quality one but it's already down to the frame. The thing is in phenomenal shape overall but you can tell that's because it sat a long while. It needs some grease for sure.