Thoughts on randonneuring handlebars (on an '83 Trek 720)?
09-22-22, 06:53 PM
#26
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I have an opinion on this. There is a Compass (Herse?) Rando on my Rex, a VO Rando on my TREK 710, and a Nitto Noodle on my newly rebuilt TREK 760. I like em all. Probably the most comfortable overall is the VO, although the Compass is right there. The Noodle just looks more right on the racy 760. I prefer all the above bars because I'm getting old and staying more on the tops, and the curves on the randos feel a bit better to my hands. Also, I have large monkey hands attached to my monkey arms, and there is more real estate on the rando bars.
09-23-22, 06:46 AM
#27
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A typical Randonneur bends at the bar clamp to angle the tops upwards, raising the whole hook by about 1 cm but without any backwards sweep. This allows a lower drop distance, reducing back bend for long rides when you are grasping the drop, and the same for the ramp. It also typically has a generous vertical bend in the hooks, allowing a long, flat ramp like the old Maes bend or the Cinelli 66. But the bend from the top to the ramp is 90 degrees, not more, so the bar flares out and is several centimeters wider at the drops and the ends than it is at the front of the hooks or across the ramps. So for those who like to ride on the ramps or hoods, the hands are raised by about 1 cm relative to a B115 or a Maes for better long-distance comfort. And the flared out drops give your wrists clearance from the bar curvature from the top to the ramp, so you won't knock your wrists in the drops. When you measure the width of a Rando bar you have to say if t is at the drops/ends, across the hooks, or across the ramps. I think Nitto randos come in two patterns, with differing amounts of this flare.
The Maes is a really old design, I've seen it in Peter Kohler's blogs dating back at least to 1950, and they were sold in US bike shops in the '60 and '70s, at least I remember seeing them in my Chicago local shops. The hook bend has a very generous radius so the ramp and the drop areas are both horizontal or nearly so. I like that feature!
Currently on my 1952 Rudge rebuild I'm going to use either the original 38 cm "Sylvan Maes" bend (English-made by Gerry Burgess Company BITD) it came with or a very graceful-looking 42 cm (I think) Gerry Burgess Randonneur which just feels good in my hands. I think those Randos were made for the 1960s/70s sport bikes sold by Raleigh and other Brit brands, but this one has no ornamentation like colors, maps of UK, or crowns, wreaths or racing wins engraved on it. Just smooth aluminum.
Last edited by Road Fan; 09-23-22 at 04:22 PM.
09-23-22, 07:16 AM
#28
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Like saddles, a very personal choice. I have CInellis, Noodles and Rando bars on various bikes and I like them all when they're suitably fitted to the style of ride. I'm 6' 3" and many older SR randos are too narrow for me on the tops. Velo Orange has their Rando bars on sale and they go up to 50 at the drops, which works for me. I got one, have only ridden it once but it felt "more righter". In fact, all they have in stock now are 46, 48 and 50. Great deal.
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1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
09-23-22, 07:27 AM
#29
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I have one, I don’t love it but I do prefer it to the VO. If you go that route you’ll probably have to shorten the stem because they have a lot of reach.
09-23-22, 08:34 AM
#30
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Agreed. I used the Nitto B135 for many years before buying a RH Randonneur bar, and I got the extra reach I wanted on the ramps, but my arms have a bit further to stretch to get comfortable in the drops with the bars tilted appropriately for comfort on the ramps.
09-29-22, 02:12 PM
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The biggest and most important difference for me is greater width at the hoods on the Noodles. I can’t comment specifically on touring, but generally I just feel more comfortable and stable with a wider grip. I still like my rando bars, but I definitely wouldn’t use smaller than 44 cm, and I am a fairly small human.
The upward bend of rando bars gets the hoods a bit higher of course, and the flare means you can ride the drops for extended periods or climb without bumping your forearms.
The upward bend of rando bars gets the hoods a bit higher of course, and the flare means you can ride the drops for extended periods or climb without bumping your forearms.
09-29-22, 02:15 PM
#32
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I had some Nitto Rando bars on a build and they were...meh. They were narrow for the stated width because they were measured from the drops and flare. I dont think the up-sweep makes any difference for me.
They werent bad, but I dont plan on buying them again and there are other bars I would use in a quill stem- namely some Soma Hwy 1 bars. Wide, comfortable, and a nice bend.
They werent bad, but I dont plan on buying them again and there are other bars I would use in a quill stem- namely some Soma Hwy 1 bars. Wide, comfortable, and a nice bend.
09-29-22, 02:18 PM
#33
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I have a lot of thoughts on this...
I have a 1985 Trek 720, a 1985 Trek 620 and have used the stock Cinelli bars, the stock Belleri bars on the 620 as well as the Nitto B132 rando bar and the Nitto B177 "Noodle," and the Sakae "Grand Randnner" bars. With the Cinelli not having the "rando bends" going to the SR bars having the most exaggerated "rando bends." With the Cinelli and Belleri having pretty normal curvature.
I rode the 720, sorta stock/period correct for a few years. In that time period, I'd put a B177 on my 620 and really liked it. Also in that time I had the SR bars on my Schwinn Voyageur SP. The 720 went through a few different cockpit changes- and at some point, I redid the 720 with a more modern setup, with a taller Nitto Technomic stem and B177 bars because I liked them on the 620. (I used to remember all the measurements- but I don't anymore... sorry) After I redid the 720 I got a Miyata 1000LT and got a set of Nitto B132 bars on there with bar end shifters.
So my preference, in order- B177 .... long gap... B132, Belleri, Cinelli, SR. I love the B177 because they're wider and the long, flat ramps. The B177s are kind of the "anti-rando" bar because they go down and go back at the corners instead of up like a traditional rando bar.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4743/39573143872_0bff80085e_c.jpgRough Fit 720 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/151917295@N05/]1969TGB, on Flickr
One thing sorta unique about my setups is that I use the Suntour Command shifters, they mount inboard of the brake levers- and I have a handlebar bag- so the bars need to be wide enough for the shifters to clear the bag. Additionally, I'm not a big guy- but wider bars are much more comfortable to me. Because bars are measured at the drops and rando bars splay out- even though they may measure 44- they're still like 38 at the hoods- and that "between the hoods" distance is the more important distance unless you spend much more time in the drops.
I have a 1985 Trek 720, a 1985 Trek 620 and have used the stock Cinelli bars, the stock Belleri bars on the 620 as well as the Nitto B132 rando bar and the Nitto B177 "Noodle," and the Sakae "Grand Randnner" bars. With the Cinelli not having the "rando bends" going to the SR bars having the most exaggerated "rando bends." With the Cinelli and Belleri having pretty normal curvature.
I rode the 720, sorta stock/period correct for a few years. In that time period, I'd put a B177 on my 620 and really liked it. Also in that time I had the SR bars on my Schwinn Voyageur SP. The 720 went through a few different cockpit changes- and at some point, I redid the 720 with a more modern setup, with a taller Nitto Technomic stem and B177 bars because I liked them on the 620. (I used to remember all the measurements- but I don't anymore... sorry) After I redid the 720 I got a Miyata 1000LT and got a set of Nitto B132 bars on there with bar end shifters.
So my preference, in order- B177 .... long gap... B132, Belleri, Cinelli, SR. I love the B177 because they're wider and the long, flat ramps. The B177s are kind of the "anti-rando" bar because they go down and go back at the corners instead of up like a traditional rando bar.
https://live.staticflickr.com/4743/39573143872_0bff80085e_c.jpgRough Fit 720 by https://www.flickr.com/photos/151917295@N05/]1969TGB, on Flickr
One thing sorta unique about my setups is that I use the Suntour Command shifters, they mount inboard of the brake levers- and I have a handlebar bag- so the bars need to be wide enough for the shifters to clear the bag. Additionally, I'm not a big guy- but wider bars are much more comfortable to me. Because bars are measured at the drops and rando bars splay out- even though they may measure 44- they're still like 38 at the hoods- and that "between the hoods" distance is the more important distance unless you spend much more time in the drops.
09-29-22, 02:20 PM
#34
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Noodles have distinctly less angle between drops and ramps compared to “traditional bars”, as well as the shorter reach that my short (and getting shorter/stiffer at 73 YO) torso prefers, while still having plenty of room to roam across the hoods/ramps. The slight backward bend across the tops works fine for me. FWIW, I only use the tops when climbing steep hills (plenty around here), drops on long descents or when I might need maximum braking, and move all over the hoods and ramps for the bulk of my riding. That was true when touring decades ago, but now the cockpit is taller and shorter. I’ve found the Noodles exceptionally comfortable over the last 8 years/20,000 miles in all those positions and really like the multiple positions - I identified 10 used frequently on long rides. (FWIW, I used Soma Hwy 1’s and similar compact bars on the same bikes for several years and liked them but prefer the larger ramp area of Noodles.)
I tried an SR “Grand Randnner” bar (43cm at drops, 38cm at hoods), that had been donated to Bike Works and cheap to me as volunteer for about 50 miles in comparison with my long-time favorite Noodles/177 (42cm at drops, 41cm at hoods), to see if there really was the impressive comfort that JH claims. If there was a noticeable improvement, I would have considered investing in the spendy RH version with an even shorter stem (RH bars have >1cm more reach). I set up the SR bars so that the Campy Ergo hoods were very similar in height, location on the bend and reach to the saddle so that only the bar shape was distinctly different. (As a former aerospace test engineer, it’s all about reducing variables!)
The SR version has the same shallow drop angle and shorter reach like the Noodle, but I never felt any improvement over the Noodles, actually a bit odd. Riding on the tops was distinctly weird and I didn’t much like the flare. In most of the ramp positions, it felt like my elbows were being pushed inward, but on the tops they were pushed outward/forearms twisted less naturally. BTW, I have narrow shoulders and used 38cm bars in the past so I’m not averse to narrow bars; 40 cm Noodles might be “ideal” for me.
I’m not suggesting that JH with his extensive experience and mileage/strength/capability >>>mine is mistaken but my little experiment suggest that hand-bar comfort might be like saddles. We’re all different in our musculature, proportions and preferences. (But JH and I share GB saddle preference!)
I tried an SR “Grand Randnner” bar (43cm at drops, 38cm at hoods), that had been donated to Bike Works and cheap to me as volunteer for about 50 miles in comparison with my long-time favorite Noodles/177 (42cm at drops, 41cm at hoods), to see if there really was the impressive comfort that JH claims. If there was a noticeable improvement, I would have considered investing in the spendy RH version with an even shorter stem (RH bars have >1cm more reach). I set up the SR bars so that the Campy Ergo hoods were very similar in height, location on the bend and reach to the saddle so that only the bar shape was distinctly different. (As a former aerospace test engineer, it’s all about reducing variables!)
The SR version has the same shallow drop angle and shorter reach like the Noodle, but I never felt any improvement over the Noodles, actually a bit odd. Riding on the tops was distinctly weird and I didn’t much like the flare. In most of the ramp positions, it felt like my elbows were being pushed inward, but on the tops they were pushed outward/forearms twisted less naturally. BTW, I have narrow shoulders and used 38cm bars in the past so I’m not averse to narrow bars; 40 cm Noodles might be “ideal” for me.
I’m not suggesting that JH with his extensive experience and mileage/strength/capability >>>mine is mistaken but my little experiment suggest that hand-bar comfort might be like saddles. We’re all different in our musculature, proportions and preferences. (But JH and I share GB saddle preference!)
09-29-22, 02:23 PM
#35
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I have an opinion on this. There is a Compass (Herse?) Rando on my Rex, a VO Rando on my TREK 710, and a Nitto Noodle on my newly rebuilt TREK 760. I like em all. Probably the most comfortable overall is the VO, although the Compass is right there. The Noodle just looks more right on the racy 760. I prefer all the above bars because I'm getting old and staying more on the tops, and the curves on the randos feel a bit better to my hands. Also, I have large monkey hands attached to my monkey arms, and there is more real estate on the rando bars.
09-29-22, 02:33 PM
#36
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The Noodle was designed at Rivendell and soured from Nitto, I think it's 177. It sweeps the tops back about 1 cm without rising. This improves the angle of the tops for wrist comfort and it allows a longer ramp without increasing reach. The generous hooks have the same amount of drop as a similar "normal" bar, for example a B115. The curve from the top to the ramp is pretty tight, allowing a wide hand position on the tops, but it could get in the way of your wrists when you ride in the drop, hence they're not great for racing, at least shorter, intense rides like pistas or tight urban crits. The top-to-ramp curve is bent more than 90 degrees, so the two hooks left and right are parallel and don't have much flare, so the experience of riding on the ramp, hood, the hook behind the brake levers and the flat drop is pretty much like that of a typical road bar, with an open bend like a B115 or a Cinelli 66. I don't compare it to a currently-popular Cinelli 64 ("giro d'Italia") because the 64 has very tight hook bends. If you put the drops near horizontal, the ramps are steeply sloped downward, so they really aren't touring bars. Not being a guy who can ride in the drops for a long time, I don't use them though I've had several.
A typical Randonneur bends at the bar clamp to angle the tops upwards, raising the whole hook by about 1 cm but without any backwards sweep. This allows a lower drop distance, reducing back bend for long rides when you are grasping the drop, and the same for the ramp. It also typically has a generous vertical bend in the hooks, allowing a long, flat ramp like the old Maes bend or the Cinelli 66. But the bend from the top to the ramp is 90 degrees, not more, so the bar flares out and is several centimeters wider at the drops and the ends than it is at the front of the hooks or across the ramps. So for those who like to ride on the ramps or hoods, the hands are raised by about 1 cm relative to a B115 or a Maes for better long-distance comfort. And the flared out drops give your wrists clearance from the bar curvature from the top to the ramp, so you won't knock your wrists in the drops. When you measure the width of a Rando bar you have to say if t is at the drops/ends, across the hooks, or across the ramps. I think Nitto randos come in two patterns, with differing amounts of this flare.
The Maes is a really old design, I've seen it in Peter Kohler's blogs dating back at least to 1950, and they were sold in US bike shops in the '60 and '70s, at least I remember seeing them in my Chicago local shops. The hook bend has a very generous radius so the ramp and the drop areas are both horizontal or nearly so. I like that feature!
Currently on my 1952 Rudge rebuild I'm going to use either the original 38 cm "Sylvan Maes" bend (English-made by Gerry Burgess Company BITD) it came with or a very graceful-looking 42 cm (I think) Gerry Burgess Randonneur which just feels good in my hands. I think those Randos were made for the 1960s/70s sport bikes sold by Raleigh and other Brit brands, but this one has no ornamentation like colors, maps of UK, or crowns, wreaths or racing wins engraved on it. Just smooth aluminum.
A typical Randonneur bends at the bar clamp to angle the tops upwards, raising the whole hook by about 1 cm but without any backwards sweep. This allows a lower drop distance, reducing back bend for long rides when you are grasping the drop, and the same for the ramp. It also typically has a generous vertical bend in the hooks, allowing a long, flat ramp like the old Maes bend or the Cinelli 66. But the bend from the top to the ramp is 90 degrees, not more, so the bar flares out and is several centimeters wider at the drops and the ends than it is at the front of the hooks or across the ramps. So for those who like to ride on the ramps or hoods, the hands are raised by about 1 cm relative to a B115 or a Maes for better long-distance comfort. And the flared out drops give your wrists clearance from the bar curvature from the top to the ramp, so you won't knock your wrists in the drops. When you measure the width of a Rando bar you have to say if t is at the drops/ends, across the hooks, or across the ramps. I think Nitto randos come in two patterns, with differing amounts of this flare.
The Maes is a really old design, I've seen it in Peter Kohler's blogs dating back at least to 1950, and they were sold in US bike shops in the '60 and '70s, at least I remember seeing them in my Chicago local shops. The hook bend has a very generous radius so the ramp and the drop areas are both horizontal or nearly so. I like that feature!
Currently on my 1952 Rudge rebuild I'm going to use either the original 38 cm "Sylvan Maes" bend (English-made by Gerry Burgess Company BITD) it came with or a very graceful-looking 42 cm (I think) Gerry Burgess Randonneur which just feels good in my hands. I think those Randos were made for the 1960s/70s sport bikes sold by Raleigh and other Brit brands, but this one has no ornamentation like colors, maps of UK, or crowns, wreaths or racing wins engraved on it. Just smooth aluminum.
They measure about 44 at the widest (bar ends) and about 41 at the center of the hooks.
09-29-22, 02:36 PM
#37
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Like saddles, a very personal choice. I have CInellis, Noodles and Rando bars on various bikes and I like them all when they're suitably fitted to the style of ride. I'm 6' 3" and many older SR randos are too narrow for me on the tops. Velo Orange has their Rando bars on sale and they go up to 50 at the drops, which works for me. I got one, have only ridden it once but it felt "more righter". In fact, all they have in stock now are 46, 48 and 50. Great deal.
09-29-22, 02:43 PM
#38
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In fact, they're also an additional 20% off right now, they're having a fall sale that includes discounted items making them $32. I have another one in may basket plus some other goodies. I'm about to pull the trigger.
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1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
1987 Mercian Pro, 1985 Shogun 500, 197? Falcon San Remo, 1972 Peugeot PX-10, 1972 Schwinn Paramount P13-9, 1971 Peugeot PX-10, 1971 Raleigh International, 1970 Raleigh Professional Mark I
Curator/Team Mechanic: 2016 Dawes Streetfighter, 1984 Lotus Eclair, 1975 Motobecane Jubile Mixte, 1974 Raleigh Sports, 1973 Free Spirit Ted Williams, 1972 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Philips Sport
09-29-22, 03:05 PM
#39
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>> all sale that includes discounted items making them $32.
Dang! Mine arrived yesterday and was $49 shipped, which I thought was a pretty good deal.
It looks good but the proof is in the riding. I'll mount it on my Gordon BLT and ride it a bit before I start collecting more
cheers -m
Dang! Mine arrived yesterday and was $49 shipped, which I thought was a pretty good deal.
It looks good but the proof is in the riding. I'll mount it on my Gordon BLT and ride it a bit before I start collecting more
cheers -m
09-29-22, 03:36 PM
#40
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Thanks for the tip! Just pulled the trigger on the 48s myself. If they don't work, at that price, I'm sure I can pass them on. Looking at the GBs, I think it's going to be tight up top, but I'll set them up as a separate cockpit to A/B the two. Strange the way bat's were so narrow for so long - I don't think people are that much wider at the shoulders these days...??
09-29-22, 09:50 PM
#41
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Thanks for the tip! Just pulled the trigger on the 48s myself. If they don't work, at that price, I'm sure I can pass them on. Looking at the GBs, I think it's going to be tight up top, but I'll set them up as a separate cockpit to A/B the two. Strange the way bat's were so narrow for so long - I don't think people are that much wider at the shoulders these days...??
Regarding justifications- it's never "it's just more comfortable to bear your weight approximately shoulder width apart."
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09-30-22, 06:47 AM
#42
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I've always wondered about that... since one of the justifications I've read for wider bars is that it "opens up the chest," perhaps the thought was narrower bars narrow your body into the wind and 38 is a minimum width needed for leverage and control. I just made that up... but you never know.
Regarding justifications- it's never "it's just more comfortable to bear your weight approximately shoulder width apart."
Regarding justifications- it's never "it's just more comfortable to bear your weight approximately shoulder width apart."
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09-30-22, 06:55 AM
#43
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Again, I'm not a big guy, but without experience- I felt cramped on narrow bars and was looking for wider bars pretty much as soon as I got into the hobby.
So- what is kind of interesting is that narrow bars has either been implied with 'what the pros do, so you should too' or 'this is just the way it is,' until someone figured out they could make bars wider...
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09-30-22, 11:10 AM
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I have used Nitto Noodle bars as my go drop bar for the last 15+ years. I tried the RH Rando bar and did not get along with it. I followed their instructions for set up but it never really was comfortable for me. I would strat with the Nitto rando bars and see if you can get a nice, used set as a way to control the $$. The Noodles are similar but come back towards you a bit. If you want a slightly more upright ride, they might be a better choice.
09-30-22, 12:24 PM
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Just one more personal experience - picked up a Nishiki Cresta GT tourer in June, with a flat bar in place of the original Kusuki randonneur. That had to go, so I decided to throw on one of those Sakae Road Champion "RANDNNER" bars from my jangling tangle o'handlebars, just to at least approximate the originality. Absent a decent working pair of period-correct aero brake levers, I threw on a set of Tektros. Ridden several hundred miles on it since, including two 60-70 mile days, and I'm pleasantly surprised at the fit/feel. The tops don't feel "cramped" as I expected, and the transition onto the hoods of the Tektros doesn't feel abrupt.
10-11-22, 07:52 PM
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Ok, so the VO bar arrived. Feels like it will be very comfortable, but it's considerably heavier than I expected. I mean, it's not going on a racing bike, but I have been trying to get the weight down where I can. So that will be a factor in deciding between the VO, the GB I posted pics of earlier, and a 44cm Noodle I managed to score for an excellent price off a well known evil auction site.
