How much “wheel hop” do you consider acceptable when truing a wheel?
02-17-23, 02:30 PM
#51
Because car wheels are 30 pounds and are suspended.
Have you ridden a bike down a hill?
Have you ridden a bike down a hill?
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02-17-23, 05:06 PM
#52
02-17-23, 05:47 PM
#53
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Lastly, I wonder how tubeless tires with sealant square with this? 2 fluid ounces of Stan's weighs just under 60 g. Gravity exerts a force on the sealant so that it is not evenly distributed throughout a tire in motion.
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 02-17-23 at 11:52 PM.
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02-17-23, 06:32 PM
#55
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Re wheel balance.
All this talk of balance precision is nonsense because you can't get your clothes cleaner than the water you rinse in.
By that I mean that precision considerations must be in context of real world implications.
There are innumerable variables that make the real world very different than a dyno or wind tunnel. Those include things like unsuspended wheels on HP tires not being free to oscillate, and therefore immune to any harmonic effects, out of roundness of the tires themselves, etc.
I've ridden countless bicycles in all sorts of miserable conditions, and based on experience that there's plenty of room for error.
Radial out of roundness is meaningful if beyond 1mm or so, or maybe a bit less in some cases, but weight imbalance isn't.
Folks are free to believe whatever they like, and donate their dough to the gurus of micro precision, but all of my experience related to bike performance tells me that efforts should be focused on the engine.
All this talk of balance precision is nonsense because you can't get your clothes cleaner than the water you rinse in.
By that I mean that precision considerations must be in context of real world implications.
There are innumerable variables that make the real world very different than a dyno or wind tunnel. Those include things like unsuspended wheels on HP tires not being free to oscillate, and therefore immune to any harmonic effects, out of roundness of the tires themselves, etc.
I've ridden countless bicycles in all sorts of miserable conditions, and based on experience that there's plenty of room for error.
Radial out of roundness is meaningful if beyond 1mm or so, or maybe a bit less in some cases, but weight imbalance isn't.
Folks are free to believe whatever they like, and donate their dough to the gurus of micro precision, but all of my experience related to bike performance tells me that efforts should be focused on the engine.
Last edited by FBinNY; 02-17-23 at 06:36 PM.
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02-17-23, 06:41 PM
#56
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Wheel balance on bikes is one of those myths I wish would die along with hydroplaning bike tires.
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02-17-23, 07:07 PM
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02-17-23, 07:57 PM
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02-17-23, 08:45 PM
#59
02-17-23, 11:30 PM
#61
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I can sure feel imbalance on high speed decents,
Maybe instead of worrying about perfect roundness you should worry about this:
"Main frame computer testing at McDonnel Douglas, has shown that just 3 grams out of balance will multiply 25 times at 25 mph and is exponential above those speeds to the point where a serious out of balance problem inhibits the forward speed of the bicycle and can make it impossible to control. At 25 mph, 3 grams out of balance will cost the rider 100 ft. per mile and at 40 mph, it is close to 500 ft. per mile. One national competitor brought his wheel set to me (Zipp) and I found that the front was 31 grams out of balance and the rear was 28 grams out. He stated he could not control the bike much above 30 mph on a decent. Putting the balancing weights opposite of the heavy point is not a balance in all planes and does not work. Most wheel manufacturers strive to ensure a balance as much as possible, but they cannot anticipate where the speedo magnet will go, nor how heavy the tube stem will be. Only one wheel maker (ADA)actually does it right and I helped design those wheels and bearings. However, not even Cees Beers (ADA) can anticipate how heavy the stem will be, so he does the best he can. Have been riding a racing style bike since 1962, and during the intervening years have found only one wheel was in balance after mounting the tire and tube. Most take between 3 and 7 grams of balance weights. Have found that carbon fiber wheels tend to be the worst offenders (along with solid rear wheels), with good rims (MAVIC) and good tires Vittoria and Conti Super Sonic tubes to be the least offensive combinations. Contrary to most who state that wheel vibration contributes to high speed castor shake, after extensive testing, have found this to not be true. A badly designed and matched frame/front fork offset is generally the culprit. The fork, with too much off-set sets up a vibration that twists the downtube radially and axially when a sympathetic vibration with the downtube is matched. This translates to a side to side shake of the head tube, then this translates to an axial motion at the top tube/head tube bearing and this becomes the motion at the handlebars. Proper wheel balancing cannot stop this combination, but improper wheel balancing will add to the problem. Have written and published many papers on bicycle wheel balancing, but withdrew the papers after I found out that several were charging for wheel balancing and several were unwilling to give me credit for the years of work that I had to do to perfect and make the balancing system repeatable (as in the current HPV speed record holder). I will answer questions, but will not respond to snide comments or trolls. If you live in the Chesapeake VA area, bring your wheels by and I'll balance them for you--free,
Maybe instead of worrying about perfect roundness you should worry about this:
"Main frame computer testing at McDonnel Douglas, has shown that just 3 grams out of balance will multiply 25 times at 25 mph and is exponential above those speeds to the point where a serious out of balance problem inhibits the forward speed of the bicycle and can make it impossible to control. At 25 mph, 3 grams out of balance will cost the rider 100 ft. per mile and at 40 mph, it is close to 500 ft. per mile. One national competitor brought his wheel set to me (Zipp) and I found that the front was 31 grams out of balance and the rear was 28 grams out. He stated he could not control the bike much above 30 mph on a decent. Putting the balancing weights opposite of the heavy point is not a balance in all planes and does not work. Most wheel manufacturers strive to ensure a balance as much as possible, but they cannot anticipate where the speedo magnet will go, nor how heavy the tube stem will be. Only one wheel maker (ADA)actually does it right and I helped design those wheels and bearings. However, not even Cees Beers (ADA) can anticipate how heavy the stem will be, so he does the best he can. Have been riding a racing style bike since 1962, and during the intervening years have found only one wheel was in balance after mounting the tire and tube. Most take between 3 and 7 grams of balance weights. Have found that carbon fiber wheels tend to be the worst offenders (along with solid rear wheels), with good rims (MAVIC) and good tires Vittoria and Conti Super Sonic tubes to be the least offensive combinations. Contrary to most who state that wheel vibration contributes to high speed castor shake, after extensive testing, have found this to not be true. A badly designed and matched frame/front fork offset is generally the culprit. The fork, with too much off-set sets up a vibration that twists the downtube radially and axially when a sympathetic vibration with the downtube is matched. This translates to a side to side shake of the head tube, then this translates to an axial motion at the top tube/head tube bearing and this becomes the motion at the handlebars. Proper wheel balancing cannot stop this combination, but improper wheel balancing will add to the problem. Have written and published many papers on bicycle wheel balancing, but withdrew the papers after I found out that several were charging for wheel balancing and several were unwilling to give me credit for the years of work that I had to do to perfect and make the balancing system repeatable (as in the current HPV speed record holder). I will answer questions, but will not respond to snide comments or trolls. If you live in the Chesapeake VA area, bring your wheels by and I'll balance them for you--free,
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02-17-23, 11:54 PM
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02-18-23, 01:22 AM
#63
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02-18-23, 09:28 AM
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Loads of nonsense.
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02-18-23, 09:32 AM
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Doesn't matter in the real world.
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02-18-23, 09:35 AM
#66
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Who wrote that nonsense? How/where can a wheel be 1 oz "out of balance"?
I can sure feel imbalance on high speed decents,
Maybe instead of worrying about perfect roundness you should worry about this:
"Main frame computer testing at McDonnel Douglas, has shown that just 3 grams out of balance will multiply 25 times at 25 mph and is exponential above those speeds to the point where a serious out of balance problem inhibits the forward speed of the bicycle and can make it impossible to control. At 25 mph, 3 grams out of balance will cost the rider 100 ft. per mile and at 40 mph, it is close to 500 ft. per mile. One national competitor brought his wheel set to me (Zipp) and I found that the front was 31 grams out of balance and the rear was 28 grams out. He stated he could not control the bike much above 30 mph on a decent. Putting the balancing weights opposite of the heavy point is not a balance in all planes and does not work. Most wheel manufacturers strive to ensure a balance as much as possible, but they cannot anticipate where the speedo magnet will go, nor how heavy the tube stem will be. Only one wheel maker (ADA)actually does it right and I helped design those wheels and bearings. However, not even Cees Beers (ADA) can anticipate how heavy the stem will be, so he does the best he can. Have been riding a racing style bike since 1962, and during the intervening years have found only one wheel was in balance after mounting the tire and tube. Most take between 3 and 7 grams of balance weights. Have found that carbon fiber wheels tend to be the worst offenders (along with solid rear wheels), with good rims (MAVIC) and good tires Vittoria and Conti Super Sonic tubes to be the least offensive combinations. Contrary to most who state that wheel vibration contributes to high speed castor shake, after extensive testing, have found this to not be true. A badly designed and matched frame/front fork offset is generally the culprit. The fork, with too much off-set sets up a vibration that twists the downtube radially and axially when a sympathetic vibration with the downtube is matched. This translates to a side to side shake of the head tube, then this translates to an axial motion at the top tube/head tube bearing and this becomes the motion at the handlebars. Proper wheel balancing cannot stop this combination, but improper wheel balancing will add to the problem. Have written and published many papers on bicycle wheel balancing, but withdrew the papers after I found out that several were charging for wheel balancing and several were unwilling to give me credit for the years of work that I had to do to perfect and make the balancing system repeatable (as in the current HPV speed record holder). I will answer questions, but will not respond to snide comments or trolls. If you live in the Chesapeake VA area, bring your wheels by and I'll balance them for you--free,
Maybe instead of worrying about perfect roundness you should worry about this:
"Main frame computer testing at McDonnel Douglas, has shown that just 3 grams out of balance will multiply 25 times at 25 mph and is exponential above those speeds to the point where a serious out of balance problem inhibits the forward speed of the bicycle and can make it impossible to control. At 25 mph, 3 grams out of balance will cost the rider 100 ft. per mile and at 40 mph, it is close to 500 ft. per mile. One national competitor brought his wheel set to me (Zipp) and I found that the front was 31 grams out of balance and the rear was 28 grams out. He stated he could not control the bike much above 30 mph on a decent. Putting the balancing weights opposite of the heavy point is not a balance in all planes and does not work. Most wheel manufacturers strive to ensure a balance as much as possible, but they cannot anticipate where the speedo magnet will go, nor how heavy the tube stem will be. Only one wheel maker (ADA)actually does it right and I helped design those wheels and bearings. However, not even Cees Beers (ADA) can anticipate how heavy the stem will be, so he does the best he can. Have been riding a racing style bike since 1962, and during the intervening years have found only one wheel was in balance after mounting the tire and tube. Most take between 3 and 7 grams of balance weights. Have found that carbon fiber wheels tend to be the worst offenders (along with solid rear wheels), with good rims (MAVIC) and good tires Vittoria and Conti Super Sonic tubes to be the least offensive combinations. Contrary to most who state that wheel vibration contributes to high speed castor shake, after extensive testing, have found this to not be true. A badly designed and matched frame/front fork offset is generally the culprit. The fork, with too much off-set sets up a vibration that twists the downtube radially and axially when a sympathetic vibration with the downtube is matched. This translates to a side to side shake of the head tube, then this translates to an axial motion at the top tube/head tube bearing and this becomes the motion at the handlebars. Proper wheel balancing cannot stop this combination, but improper wheel balancing will add to the problem. Have written and published many papers on bicycle wheel balancing, but withdrew the papers after I found out that several were charging for wheel balancing and several were unwilling to give me credit for the years of work that I had to do to perfect and make the balancing system repeatable (as in the current HPV speed record holder). I will answer questions, but will not respond to snide comments or trolls. If you live in the Chesapeake VA area, bring your wheels by and I'll balance them for you--free,
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03-01-23, 03:53 PM
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03-01-23, 10:16 PM
#69
03-03-23, 12:56 AM
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What the hell is so hard about putting a speedometer magnet on a spoke to even the balance?? Usually the opposite side of the stem.
Put a crooked steel Flying Pidgeon front wheel on a 20 lb gravel bike and see how far it doesn't matter at 40 mph downhill. LOL.
What a farce.
My antique SS Rudge had the jumpy spin too.
I could sure feel a flat spot on my alu rim.
With my former defaileur crooked chainline bike, I could feel the constant flutter on a quiet road.
Put a crooked steel Flying Pidgeon front wheel on a 20 lb gravel bike and see how far it doesn't matter at 40 mph downhill. LOL.
What a farce.
My antique SS Rudge had the jumpy spin too.
I could sure feel a flat spot on my alu rim.
With my former defaileur crooked chainline bike, I could feel the constant flutter on a quiet road.
