C&V Terminator
#51
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No argument here and most of this is my point, hack wrenchers don't learn or care, shop owners, suppliers and companies only want easier, faster and cheaper so they can keep paying less and less to work on the crap that continues to drag the standards down.
You and I know the difference and have the experience to make it work either way, the key thing that is lost on many of today's players.
You and I know the difference and have the experience to make it work either way, the key thing that is lost on many of today's players.
I'm sure that 45 years ago, someone said "suppliers and companies only want easier, faster and cheaper so they can keep paying less and less to work on the crap that continues to drag the standards down." while replacing the fourth broken Simplex Prestige on their watch.
I think we both know that even 20 years ago, we could easily get most local mechanics to debate the existence of French headset threads, even if they seemed knowledgeable at first. There's one guy at an LBS who has sworn up and down for a decade to me that such a thing doesn't exist. Just wait until he discovers a constructeur bike.
-Kurt
#52
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16mm crank bolts. Who in their right mind thought this was a better alternative to 14mm and 15mm crank bolts?
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#53
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Di2 sure as hell isn't easier, faster, or cheaper (at least in MSRP)
I'm sure that 45 years ago, someone said "suppliers and companies only want easier, faster and cheaper so they can keep paying less and less to work on the crap that continues to drag the standards down." while replacing the fourth broken Simplex Prestige on their watch.
I think we both know that even 20 years ago, we could easily get most local mechanics to debate the existence of French headset threads, even if they seemed knowledgeable at first. There's one guy at an LBS who has sworn up and down for a decade to me that such a thing doesn't exist. Just wait until he discovers a constructeur bike.
-Kurt
I'm sure that 45 years ago, someone said "suppliers and companies only want easier, faster and cheaper so they can keep paying less and less to work on the crap that continues to drag the standards down." while replacing the fourth broken Simplex Prestige on their watch.
I think we both know that even 20 years ago, we could easily get most local mechanics to debate the existence of French headset threads, even if they seemed knowledgeable at first. There's one guy at an LBS who has sworn up and down for a decade to me that such a thing doesn't exist. Just wait until he discovers a constructeur bike.
-Kurt
I wouldn't be so sure about Di2, sure its not cheaper but it is cookie cutter, planned obsolescence, disposable, throwaway tech that will never be the amazing, reliable, lasting C+V vein we know and love.
A broken Simplex is pretty straight forward, cup and cone bearings not so much.
#54
I'd get rid of Di2:
10 speed Di2 got wedged in terms of batteries, inter compatibility especially with cables and only being on the market for short time before being superseded by 11 speed, but you weren't able to get parts for those components a scarily short time after they were introduced, which was very poor form, but given the circumstances was kind of forgivable. Then Shimano changes the ports for their cables, and a whole other generation of components went to the wall.
That may seem bad, but check this out: at the shop I work at, we have had the first generation Shimano E-bike motors clapping out and not being supported by Shimano - no replacement parts, no service support, just a bricked heavy bike. Shimano's solution: buying a $2,500 (AUD) replacement kit that has to include the battery. That is a really, really short product cycle, especially considering the last bike we worked on was 6 years old. Pretty much the opposite of C and V, sorry for being totally OT but I'd still get rid of Di2. How many S Works tarmacs are going to be unridable in 10 years, without a complete new drivetrain? How many Steel race bikes are still ridable with their original wheels and mechs?
10 speed Di2 got wedged in terms of batteries, inter compatibility especially with cables and only being on the market for short time before being superseded by 11 speed, but you weren't able to get parts for those components a scarily short time after they were introduced, which was very poor form, but given the circumstances was kind of forgivable. Then Shimano changes the ports for their cables, and a whole other generation of components went to the wall.
That may seem bad, but check this out: at the shop I work at, we have had the first generation Shimano E-bike motors clapping out and not being supported by Shimano - no replacement parts, no service support, just a bricked heavy bike. Shimano's solution: buying a $2,500 (AUD) replacement kit that has to include the battery. That is a really, really short product cycle, especially considering the last bike we worked on was 6 years old. Pretty much the opposite of C and V, sorry for being totally OT but I'd still get rid of Di2. How many S Works tarmacs are going to be unridable in 10 years, without a complete new drivetrain? How many Steel race bikes are still ridable with their original wheels and mechs?
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#55
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#57
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As to the knockoffs, I have many horror stories of loose bearing bottom brackets made of Slagesium on HellMart bikes. Hemispherical bearings, cups that pull apart when you try to remove them, and crack spindles like the one below are common. Note that both ends of the spindle are cracked. I have seen some similar slagesium cartridge bearings but the issue isn’t with design of the part but with the materials of construction in both cases
2. Shimano's spline removal pattern should be shot, sent to the Russian front, whipped, shot again, and left to burn in hell. Whoever came up with this spline pattern engineered it perfectly to bias the removal tool to slip out of the splines while being torqued - which is more or less the only state of the tool when in use. Park has improved their remover for it, but I've lost count how many times I've bashed my hand and lost skin to this design slipping. I hate it.
3. The standard [Shimano*] design that currently proliferates the industry could have incorporated removable cartridge bearing replacements and separate rings (a-la Phil Wood) which could have resulted in a brilliant modular system of standardized center cartridges with easily replaceable bearings and separate cups to accommodate various BB threads. But nope, that's too smart, so the only design of this type is stuck in the boutique world. About the only hack one can do with the Shimano design is to use 73mm cartridges in 68mm shells with the corret left-hand lockring - if one can accept a spindle that's a bit too long on the left side.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#58
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#59
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Not really talking about just the plastic cup but yes they suck even more.
I never use a sealed one when the original can still be used and will do everything I can to make it happen.
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#60
Senior Member
Only one of my bikes had a cup/cone bottom bracket in good condition. It was a former police bike that had been well maintained. The rest had pitting and/or scoring in the cones so out they went.
#61
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Not in my experience. Personally, I’ve never had a cartridge bearing bottom bracket of any kind from square taper to external wear out in the roughly 25 to 30 years I’ve been using them. I see very few worn out ones at my local co-op…and I’ve handled thousands of them. On the other hand, I have worn out dozens of spindles in the 10 to 15 years before cartridge bearings became ubiquitous.
I've also replaced far fewer cup-and-cone and have been able to salvage a few BBs for folks whose only transportation is a bicycle and would barely have the funds for a cartridge replacement.
Perhaps it is a regional thing - maybe unsealed cup-and-cone BBs take a greater hit in the winter salt in Denver than the wet summers of Florida.
As to the knockoffs, I have many horror stories of loose bearing bottom brackets made of Slagesium on HellMart bikes. Hemispherical bearings, cups that pull apart when you try to remove them, and crack spindles like the one below are common. Note that both ends of the spindle are cracked. I have seen some similar slagesium cartridge bearings but the issue isn’t with design of the part but with the materials of construction in both cases
Wally World-quality stuff isn't even worth discussing; it's just not representative of quality versions of the same. That goes for both cup and cone and sealed bottom bracket designs too - either of them can be made cheaply or of high quality, and we all know the big box bunk will represent the former. Plus, a great deal of cup-and-cone BBs on Wal-Mart bikes are improperly adjusted from new, making them more prone to failure on the basis of adjustment alone.
Compared to the typical fixed cup tool like the Park HCW-4? The splined tool is parsecs better than fixed cup tools. I’ve developed a way to make it easier to work with the HCW-4 and the Shimano tool can be improved by using a Pedro’s BB holder or just a bolt, spring, and fender washer but the fixed cup tool everything you want to do to the spline tool should be done to the HCW-4 twice and then done to it twice again.
The Park HCW-4 is a piece of crap, but that's a function of Park designing a lousy tool and never bothering to improve it over 40+ years, because cheap sells.
This is what I consider a proper fixed cup removal tool that won't slip out of the bottom bracket when I torque it. It also costs 10+ times that of the HCW-4 and is hard to find. Somewhere between the HCW-4, the VAR BP-03000, and the "it's a kludge and yet it's super smart" Pedro's supplement tool is a happy medium: A tool that actually works on its own without a second tool to make it better, and is simple enough to be affordable. It just doesn't exist yet.
-Kurt
#62
Di2 sure as hell isn't easier, faster, or cheaper (at least in MSRP)
I'm sure that 45 years ago, someone said "suppliers and companies only want easier, faster and cheaper so they can keep paying less and less to work on the crap that continues to drag the standards down."
-Kurt
I'm sure that 45 years ago, someone said "suppliers and companies only want easier, faster and cheaper so they can keep paying less and less to work on the crap that continues to drag the standards down."
-Kurt
#63
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Man the salt levels are HIGH for Di2. I had one of them Ultegra 10-speed groups that was about 10 years old. Worked beautifully when I hooked it all up! I now have a Dura-Ace 9070 group, and after a component update, it's happy as a clam. 9070 debuted 10 years ago. To update that component, I had to find out what PC-to-bicycle interface to get, picked it up, and then did some more research to find out what version of Di2-specific (free) software I needed to download, did that, and all is good. It was a bit of a saga, but learning curves go that way. And for all the annoyance with the whole group being poison, it's just the shifters and derailleurs that are affected. Crankset, wheels, brakes are just fine.
The PC-to-bike interface for Di2, of which there are only two thus far, is, at the end of the day, a tool, just like a BB adjustment tool (or the half a dozen or more that were made for various 'standards' 30-40 years ago). It requires knowledge to operate, searching to find, and knowledge to know which components worked with it. I have a Suntour cartridge bearing bottom bracket adjustment/installation tool. That is arguably muuuuuch rarer to come across, let alone coming across one of those BBs in the first place. Somehow I have two bikes with them all of a sudden...
Anyways, more electronic shifting for me in the future. I'll let you all know how it goes, right after I keep riding my 42 year old Trek. with it's 40 year old components along side it.
The PC-to-bike interface for Di2, of which there are only two thus far, is, at the end of the day, a tool, just like a BB adjustment tool (or the half a dozen or more that were made for various 'standards' 30-40 years ago). It requires knowledge to operate, searching to find, and knowledge to know which components worked with it. I have a Suntour cartridge bearing bottom bracket adjustment/installation tool. That is arguably muuuuuch rarer to come across, let alone coming across one of those BBs in the first place. Somehow I have two bikes with them all of a sudden...
Anyways, more electronic shifting for me in the future. I'll let you all know how it goes, right after I keep riding my 42 year old Trek. with it's 40 year old components along side it.
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#65
Oh sigh - I think Di2 has set something off in my lizard brain I wasn't previously cognisant of .
For current GRX Di2 and current 12 speed groups, to fully adjust your derailleurs there is a shop only version of E-tube, not available to consumers. The micro adjust option only troubleshoots a very limited range, so if your indexing goes out its 40 bucks to the bike shop thanks. It's a function that was in the previous version of e-tube, that has been stripped from the current version. I've observed this stuff up to now, and given Shimano a bit of a pass, but the rate of incidence of things I'd give Shimano a pass for is accelerating and I am getting a bit saltier about it. Electronic shifting is a wonderland of opportunities for monetisation, from a bike company's perspective, though that's not always good news for consumers. Imagine if your ten speed Di2 was compatible with 11 and 12 speed. MINDS BLOWN!
I think ROS did it right though - get one of the most popular groups, at the beginning of the life cycle and take good care of it. Right now I'd get ultra Di2 12 speed, although I'd still have the niggles in the back of my mind about Shimano's behaviour to date.
For current GRX Di2 and current 12 speed groups, to fully adjust your derailleurs there is a shop only version of E-tube, not available to consumers. The micro adjust option only troubleshoots a very limited range, so if your indexing goes out its 40 bucks to the bike shop thanks. It's a function that was in the previous version of e-tube, that has been stripped from the current version. I've observed this stuff up to now, and given Shimano a bit of a pass, but the rate of incidence of things I'd give Shimano a pass for is accelerating and I am getting a bit saltier about it. Electronic shifting is a wonderland of opportunities for monetisation, from a bike company's perspective, though that's not always good news for consumers. Imagine if your ten speed Di2 was compatible with 11 and 12 speed. MINDS BLOWN!
I think ROS did it right though - get one of the most popular groups, at the beginning of the life cycle and take good care of it. Right now I'd get ultra Di2 12 speed, although I'd still have the niggles in the back of my mind about Shimano's behaviour to date.
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#66
#67
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#68
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My experience has been the opposite, strangely enough. I've worn out one (not a Shimano unit though) and have replaced quite a few of them.
I've also replaced far fewer cup-and-cone and have been able to salvage a few BBs for folks whose only transportation is a bicycle and would barely have the funds for a cartridge replacement.
Perhaps it is a regional thing - maybe unsealed cup-and-cone BBs take a greater hit in the winter salt in Denver than the wet summers of Florida.
I've also replaced far fewer cup-and-cone and have been able to salvage a few BBs for folks whose only transportation is a bicycle and would barely have the funds for a cartridge replacement.
Perhaps it is a regional thing - maybe unsealed cup-and-cone BBs take a greater hit in the winter salt in Denver than the wet summers of Florida.
I was speaking of decent-quality Shimano knockoffs - including equipment found in share bikes, i.e., copies, but quality copies. That's where I'm seeing some variations on Shimano's design that sometimes make more sense than the current UN-series BBs.
Wally World-quality stuff isn't even worth discussing; it's just not representative of quality versions of the same. That goes for both cup and cone and sealed bottom bracket designs too - either of them can be made cheaply or of high quality, and we all know the big box bunk will represent the former. Plus, a great deal of cup-and-cone BBs on Wal-Mart bikes are improperly adjusted from new, making them more prone to failure on the basis of adjustment alone.
I wasn't comparing it with anything else, I was criticizing the Shimano spline on it's own design flaws irrespective of any other design. Honestly, I don't think there's a single perfect BB removal tool designed yet.
The Park HCW-4 is a piece of crap, but that's a function of Park designing a lousy tool and never bothering to improve it over 40+ years, because cheap sells.
This is what I consider a proper fixed cup removal tool that won't slip out of the bottom bracket when I torque it. It also costs 10+ times that of the HCW-4 and is hard to find. Somewhere between the HCW-4, the VAR BP-03000, and the "it's a kludge and yet it's super smart" Pedro's supplement tool is a happy medium: A tool that actually works on its own without a second tool to make it better, and is simple enough to be affordable. It just doesn't exist yet.
It worked well enough but I improved it here with a crank bolt, a BB bearing cup, and a fender washer. I’ve used this set up, along with removing the fixed cup first, to remove several of those slagesium HellMart BB cups.
Except that they haven't done it with square tapers.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
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#69
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TI disagree. They have been improved. The “improvement” is the BBT-22 that you dislike. Not too many modern bottom brackets use the HCW-4 now so they don’t sell that many.
-Kurt
#70
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Well, in an alternate timeline, the AI determined that a united manufacturing standard was too risky, so it sent back a terminator to end the Shimano pitch 10 concept.
#71
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Not in my experience. Personally, I’ve never had a cartridge bearing bottom bracket of any kind from square taper to external wear out in the roughly 25 to 30 years I’ve been using them. I see very few worn out ones at my local co-op…and I’ve handled thousands of them. On the other hand, I have worn out dozens of spindles in the 10 to 15 years before cartridge bearings became ubiquitous.
As to the knockoffs, I have many horror stories of loose bearing bottom brackets made of Slagesium on HellMart bikes. Hemispherical bearings, cups that pull apart when you try to remove them, and crack spindles like the one below are common. Note that both ends of the spindle are cracked. I have seen some similar slagesium cartridge bearings but the issue isn’t with design of the part but with the materials of construction in both cases
Compared to the typical fixed cup tool like the Park HCW-4? The splined tool is parsecs better than fixed cup tools. I’ve developed a way to make it easier to work with the HCW-4 and the Shimano tool can be improved by using a Pedro’s BB holder or just a bolt, spring, and fender washer but the fixed cup tool everything you want to do to the spline tool should be done to the HCW-4 twice and then done to it twice again.
Well that just Shimano. Shimano should have given us cogs so that we could make any gearing we want for the freehub but nooo, can’t have that. Shimano has kind of done what you want with the Hollowtech II system…only better.
As to the knockoffs, I have many horror stories of loose bearing bottom brackets made of Slagesium on HellMart bikes. Hemispherical bearings, cups that pull apart when you try to remove them, and crack spindles like the one below are common. Note that both ends of the spindle are cracked. I have seen some similar slagesium cartridge bearings but the issue isn’t with design of the part but with the materials of construction in both cases
Compared to the typical fixed cup tool like the Park HCW-4? The splined tool is parsecs better than fixed cup tools. I’ve developed a way to make it easier to work with the HCW-4 and the Shimano tool can be improved by using a Pedro’s BB holder or just a bolt, spring, and fender washer but the fixed cup tool everything you want to do to the spline tool should be done to the HCW-4 twice and then done to it twice again.
Well that just Shimano. Shimano should have given us cogs so that we could make any gearing we want for the freehub but nooo, can’t have that. Shimano has kind of done what you want with the Hollowtech II system…only better.
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I think we both know that even 20 years ago, we could easily get most local mechanics to debate the existence of French headset threads, even if they seemed knowledgeable at first. There's one guy at an LBS who has sworn up and down for a decade to me that such a thing doesn't exist. Just wait until he discovers a constructeur bike.
-Kurt
-Kurt
#73
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-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 06-22-23 at 12:32 PM.
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#74
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Electronic shifting. It's doing horrible things to the bike industry; more toxic materials, much more expensive, nothing is compatible with anything, limited life span, more toxic materials... It does nothing to improve the bike or the rider; all it does is improve the mfrs profit margins.
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#75
Senior Member
Electronic shifting. It's doing horrible things to the bike industry; more toxic materials, much more expensive, nothing is compatible with anything, limited life span, more toxic materials... It does nothing to improve the bike or the rider; all it does is improve the mfrs profit margins.