Thinking of clipping in.
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#53
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Well, if the OP does decide to get clipped in let's suggest ways to do it. Don't go out and invest in nice equipment starting out. invest after you've decided it's for you. Find the cheapest SPD shoes you can. That could be used from someone in your area. I wnet to REI and found a returned pair with a broken lace hole for $30. Same for pedals. Find a pair of 2 sided pedals with SPD on one side and flat on the other. Ride with one foot clipped in and the other not. Switch feet. Repeat. Clip both in, or not. After a couple of weeks, you'll figure it out. Then go out and get some better equipment, or not.
Last edited by Breadfan; 06-29-23 at 08:40 AM.
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For decades nearly every racer in nearly every discipline of bicycle racing has used some form of foot retention. Are they all just wrong? Are they all just stupid followers of "fashion"?
Toe clips came out over 120 years ago. In all that time nobody has figured out that it doesn't work?
If you don't want to use foot retention that's fine, nobody cares. But some of us have used various forms of retention for many years and not necessarily because it's "faster" or "more efficient".
Toe clips came out over 120 years ago. In all that time nobody has figured out that it doesn't work?
If you don't want to use foot retention that's fine, nobody cares. But some of us have used various forms of retention for many years and not necessarily because it's "faster" or "more efficient".
It really isn't all that far-fetched that racers are "wrong". My understanding is that the evidence for actual benefit of clipless is so marginal that we can't necessarily sort out whether they all train that way because of the benefit or whether they're just better on clipless because they train that way. As the cliche goes, practice makes perfect. If you don't ride on platforms, there's no reason to assume you'd be particularly good at it when you do objective testing.
I'm a firm believer that people should try things for themselves and see if they work better or worse for them. I have no idea whether OP will be faster, slower, more or less comfortable, but as long as there's no harm in trying, it's going to be a lot more informative than reading a bunch of arguments over what should or shouldn't happen.
One thing I will argue with, however. Usually, someone in these threads will start rattling off a list of things "you can't do" on platforms, which usually consists of items I do regularly on platforms, and/or assertions that platforms are somehow "dangerous". This stuff is so misleading, that I feel a need to correct that. I am convinced, however, that platforms suck for sprinting.
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I have absolutely no dog in this fight because I cannot use any foot retention without setting off very bad chronic pain in an ankle due to a gongenital defect. I'm stuck with platforms no matter what.
It really isn't all that far-fetched that racers are "wrong". My understanding is that the evidence for actual benefit of clipless is so marginal that we can't necessarily sort out whether they all train that way because of the benefit or whether they're just better on clipless because they train that way. As the cliche goes, practice makes perfect. If you don't ride on platforms, there's no reason to assume you'd be particularly good at it when you do objective testing.
I'm a firm believer that people should try things for themselves and see if they work better or worse for them. I have no idea whether OP will be faster, slower, more or less comfortable, but as long as there's no harm in trying, it's going to be a lot more informative than reading a bunch of arguments over what should or shouldn't happen.
One thing I will argue with, however. Usually, someone in these threads will start rattling off a list of things "you can't do" on platforms, which usually consists of items I do regularly on platforms, and/or assertions that platforms are somehow "dangerous". This stuff is so misleading, that I feel a need to correct that. I am convinced, however, that platforms suck for sprinting.
It really isn't all that far-fetched that racers are "wrong". My understanding is that the evidence for actual benefit of clipless is so marginal that we can't necessarily sort out whether they all train that way because of the benefit or whether they're just better on clipless because they train that way. As the cliche goes, practice makes perfect. If you don't ride on platforms, there's no reason to assume you'd be particularly good at it when you do objective testing.
I'm a firm believer that people should try things for themselves and see if they work better or worse for them. I have no idea whether OP will be faster, slower, more or less comfortable, but as long as there's no harm in trying, it's going to be a lot more informative than reading a bunch of arguments over what should or shouldn't happen.
One thing I will argue with, however. Usually, someone in these threads will start rattling off a list of things "you can't do" on platforms, which usually consists of items I do regularly on platforms, and/or assertions that platforms are somehow "dangerous". This stuff is so misleading, that I feel a need to correct that. I am convinced, however, that platforms suck for sprinting.
I've ridden with a few (very few) people who use flat pedals on the road. They are usually not leading any climbs, but it's probably not the pedals. I have also seen people who use flats because of physical reasons, as you have described. I always use clipless for all riding and have since I stopped using clips and straps in the 80s. Do they make me faster? Doesn't matter. I would still use them even if someone could definitively prove they didn't help me make power.
People like to say "studies have shown" or someone says you can't make power on the upstroke. Again, I don't care about that, but with just a little looking I found a study which shows an increase in upstroke power when riders were instructed to pull up. You can find other such info/opinions, whatever.
It's similar to arguing about speed. Like everything every rider does is always about more speed. We've seen it many times. Someone says they are buying something and others say it won't make them faster. Or you can be just as fast on a cheap bike as on an expensive one. Is that what all of us are always doing?
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Classic, a comment from someone with zero facts. I have had clipless pedals since the 1990s, and the review by cycling coach Dylan Johnson is from someone who used them to race with professionally and who is reviewing multiple scientific papers on the subject.
It is very common for the general population to follow traditions which have no merit, much more common than it is for the general population to act with independent or critical thought. And as far as people who think outside the box, that is every great intellectual in human history, Einstein, Orwell, DaVinci, Sagan etc.. So it is both sad and hilarious to see the masses complain when confronted with facts such as cycling coach Dylan Johnson's reviews of actual research debunking their follow-the-leader non-thinking.
As usual all I do is point out facts and research anyone could discover for themselves, and because they do not like facts they attack the messenger. Another tradition like clipless pedals that have no basis in reality.
It is very common for the general population to follow traditions which have no merit, much more common than it is for the general population to act with independent or critical thought. And as far as people who think outside the box, that is every great intellectual in human history, Einstein, Orwell, DaVinci, Sagan etc.. So it is both sad and hilarious to see the masses complain when confronted with facts such as cycling coach Dylan Johnson's reviews of actual research debunking their follow-the-leader non-thinking.
As usual all I do is point out facts and research anyone could discover for themselves, and because they do not like facts they attack the messenger. Another tradition like clipless pedals that have no basis in reality.
You might also note that current pro racer and cycling coach, Dylan Johnson, sums up his video by saying that he does not recommend flat pedals for most serious cyclists and cycling situations, and clipless pedals are not more efficient than flat pedals "when pedaling down a flat road at a moderate pace". I completely agree that under moderate conditions, clipless pedals would not be an advantage. However, many of us ride our bikes hard, and have had enough personal experience to make a determination that clipless pedals are our preference, usually for more reasons than only the ability to apply force around a larger segment of the pedal circle, which is a factor you seem to keep ignoring.
Additionally, current pro racer and cycling coach, Dylan Johnson, uses clipless pedals when he races and trains. If you know anything about Dylan, you would know that he takes advantage of every incremental gain he can. If flat pedals were an advantage, he would be using them.
Again, one of the biggest reasons people bristle at your comments is your insults. Your repeated insistence that people who have made a determination that is contrary to yours are less intelligent, and/or are unable to make a rational decision for themselves, is ignorant and arrogant.
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Last edited by Eric F; 06-29-23 at 09:58 AM.
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It's similar to arguing about speed. Like everything every rider does is always about more speed. We've seen it many times. Someone says they are buying something and others say it won't make them faster. Or you can be just as fast on a cheap bike as on an expensive one. Is that what all of us are always doing?
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Sure. I have ridden with people on mountain bikes who do fine on flat pedals. Hard climbs, whatever. Would they make more power with clipless? I don't know. It doesn't matter to me.
I've ridden with a few (very few) people who use flat pedals on the road. They are usually not leading any climbs, but it's probably not the pedals. I have also seen people who use flats because of physical reasons, as you have described. I always use clipless for all riding and have since I stopped using clips and straps in the 80s. Do they make me faster? Doesn't matter. I would still use them even if someone could definitively prove they didn't help me make power.
People like to say "studies have shown" or someone says you can't make power on the upstroke. Again, I don't care about that, but with just a little looking I found a study which shows an increase in upstroke power when riders were instructed to pull up. You can find other such info/opinions, whatever.
It's similar to arguing about speed. Like everything every rider does is always about more speed. We've seen it many times. Someone says they are buying something and others say it won't make them faster. Or you can be just as fast on a cheap bike as on an expensive one. Is that what all of us are always doing?
I've ridden with a few (very few) people who use flat pedals on the road. They are usually not leading any climbs, but it's probably not the pedals. I have also seen people who use flats because of physical reasons, as you have described. I always use clipless for all riding and have since I stopped using clips and straps in the 80s. Do they make me faster? Doesn't matter. I would still use them even if someone could definitively prove they didn't help me make power.
People like to say "studies have shown" or someone says you can't make power on the upstroke. Again, I don't care about that, but with just a little looking I found a study which shows an increase in upstroke power when riders were instructed to pull up. You can find other such info/opinions, whatever.
It's similar to arguing about speed. Like everything every rider does is always about more speed. We've seen it many times. Someone says they are buying something and others say it won't make them faster. Or you can be just as fast on a cheap bike as on an expensive one. Is that what all of us are always doing?
Like I said, no substitute for trying things for yourself.
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Well, if the OP does decide to get clipped in let's suggest ways to do it. Don't go out and invest in nice equipment starting out. invest after you've decided it's for you. Find the cheapest SPD shoes you can. That could be used from someone in your area. I wnet to REI and found a returned pair with a broken lace hole for $30. Same for pedals. Find a pair of 2 sided pedals with SPD on one side and flat on the other. Ride with one foot clipped in and the other not. Switch feet. Repeat. Clip both in, or not. After a couple of weeks, you'll figure it out. Then go out and get some better equipment, or not.
#64
Looking at the stuff a few times over the years, I think the reasons that studies are back and forth about it is because whatever the effects are, they are so weak as to be easily counterbalanced or artifacts (e.g., pulling up--small marginal benefit at the cost of quicker exhaustion). But these are averages. I suspect like most things, some people will experience noticeable benefit from a change, many will not, and some will find it makes things worse. I don't think any of them are likely "wrong".
Like I said, no substitute for trying things for yourself.
Like I said, no substitute for trying things for yourself.
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It must be pretty strong to offset the negatives our contrarian experiences. Think how hard playing the solitary genius must be. Suffering bizarre fit on dubious equipment, all contact points unique, How many among us would do that 19 mile TT with a saddle tilted at 45 degrees? In jorts? On flip flops? The commitment!! And to then receive no appreciation of that genius.
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I think you're as close as anybody so far in this thread. I've watched a few different videos on the subject (GCN and others), and the results are always similar. The difference is so marginal it's hard to quantify. The discussion almost always reverts to the other factors like foot retention and stability. And that's fine. Everything I've seen does state there is an almost imperceptible advantage to being clipped in. At the elite level, that 0.01% difference could mean the difference between winning and middle of the pack. For you and me, that makes it more a matter of comfort and confidence. I'm sure some people legitimately feel a distinct difference, but for some others, I think it's really nothing more than a placebo effect.
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It must be pretty strong to offset the negatives our contrarian experiences. Think how hard playing the solitary genius must be. Suffering bizarre fit on dubious equipment, all contact points unique, How many among us would do that 19 mile TT with a saddle tilted at 45 degrees? In jorts? On flip flops? The commitment!! And to then receive no appreciation of that genius.
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Hopefully a last point on the raging debate on flats versus clipless. I am not aware (a constant state of being) of rigid carbon or even plastic soled shoes that help in the power transfer to flat pedals. They may exist but they are out of my universe - but am sure someone will step up and correct me. Perhaps it’s not so much the pedals themselves but the mating of a stout soled shoe which doesn’t flex to the pedal which helps in power delivery. This goes for toe straps/rat traps too.
I really only notice the BOAs on my shoes need to be tightened when climbing - since I do tend to pull up a tad at about the 6-7:00 part of the pedal stroke (bad habit?). There was a thread about BOAs loosening, or not being properly tightened to begin with, and how would this be noticed if the shoe was only being used to push down?
I really only notice the BOAs on my shoes need to be tightened when climbing - since I do tend to pull up a tad at about the 6-7:00 part of the pedal stroke (bad habit?). There was a thread about BOAs loosening, or not being properly tightened to begin with, and how would this be noticed if the shoe was only being used to push down?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beng1
…there is zero scientific testing…
The science shows that the muscles used…
…switch to independent and critical thinking and actual research and science.
Bad, bad fake "gotcha".
There is scientific testing but it shows no effect. Your quoting of him was deceptively selective because you cut off the part after "zero scientific testing" which said "that shows..." Saying that there is no scientific testing that supports X is not the same thing as saying X hasn't been tested scientifically. If you quoted him that way on purpose, it's as bad as lying.
Originally Posted by beng1
…there is zero scientific testing…
The science shows that the muscles used…
…switch to independent and critical thinking and actual research and science.
There is scientific testing but it shows no effect. Your quoting of him was deceptively selective because you cut off the part after "zero scientific testing" which said "that shows..." Saying that there is no scientific testing that supports X is not the same thing as saying X hasn't been tested scientifically. If you quoted him that way on purpose, it's as bad as lying.
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So you believed him when he said he used clipless pedals? The great all knowing and omnipotent fount of knowledge, the all seeing stream of consciousness was sucked in to following "fashion" like the ignorant masses? Duped by marketing like so many crazed lemmings? Say it ain't so!
And in a moment of clarity, he saw the error of his ways and decided to poop on others who have made the same faux pas.
And in a moment of clarity, he saw the error of his ways and decided to poop on others who have made the same faux pas.
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Classic, a comment from someone with zero facts. I have had clipless pedals since the 1990s, and the review by cycling coach Dylan Johnson is from someone who used them to race with professionally and who is reviewing multiple scientific papers on the subject.
It is very common for the general population to follow traditions which have no merit, much more common than it is for the general population to act with independent or critical thought. And as far as people who think outside the box, that is every great intellectual in human history, Einstein, Orwell, DaVinci, Sagan etc.. So it is both sad and hilarious to see the masses complain when confronted with facts such as cycling coach Dylan Johnson's reviews of actual research debunking their follow-the-leader non-thinking.
As usual all I do is point out facts and research anyone could discover for themselves, and because they do not like facts they attack the messenger. Another tradition like clipless pedals that have no basis in reality.
It is very common for the general population to follow traditions which have no merit, much more common than it is for the general population to act with independent or critical thought. And as far as people who think outside the box, that is every great intellectual in human history, Einstein, Orwell, DaVinci, Sagan etc.. So it is both sad and hilarious to see the masses complain when confronted with facts such as cycling coach Dylan Johnson's reviews of actual research debunking their follow-the-leader non-thinking.
As usual all I do is point out facts and research anyone could discover for themselves, and because they do not like facts they attack the messenger. Another tradition like clipless pedals that have no basis in reality.
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To the OP, if you do decide to go with simple toe clips and straps...
These all work pretty well for me:
The important things with clips and straps are to get clips that are the proper length for your feet, so you don't end up with foot issues from pushing on the pedals with your foot mispositioned on the pedal. And to find and buy straps that are stiff enough to maintain a loop for entry and exit of the foot. A double gated clip, like the ones made and sold by Soma, and many of the clips sold as mountain bike clips, can help with maintaining this open loop. But most of the straps currently sold are too limp to work well.
The important things with clips and straps are to get clips that are the proper length for your feet, so you don't end up with foot issues from pushing on the pedals with your foot mispositioned on the pedal. And to find and buy straps that are stiff enough to maintain a loop for entry and exit of the foot. A double gated clip, like the ones made and sold by Soma, and many of the clips sold as mountain bike clips, can help with maintaining this open loop. But most of the straps currently sold are too limp to work well.
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So you believed him when he said he used clipless pedals? The great all knowing and omnipotent fount of knowledge, the all seeing stream of consciousness was sucked in to following "fashion" like the ignorant masses? Duped by marketing like so many crazed lemmings? Say it ain't so!
And in a moment of clarity, he saw the error of his ways and decided to poop on others who have made the same faux pas.
And in a moment of clarity, he saw the error of his ways and decided to poop on others who have made the same faux pas.
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