ejw

Mid 60’s Paramount P12 “Tourer”. Still sporting the Gran Sport front derailleur. Just added the Campy Super Light Record(as opposed to the Super Record) pedals, w/Christophe toe clips & straps.

merziac

Pretty cool, non original decals but.......

ejw

Not sure which decal you’re referring to, but if it’s the typeface of the “Paramount”, it’s correct for the age of the frame.

merziac

Um, no. 61-63 had "Disneyland" Paramount and Schwinn spaghteti script, 64 on had the modern iconic thin line block lettering until 76

I have seen your script on a few but it is not an original Schwinn style for these.

63


64


76



https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...inn_1961_1970/

https://waterfordbikes.com/SchwinnCa...80/index2.html

I have 8 Paramounts from a 1940's to a 1975 including a 1958 and 59.

ejw

I believe the type face change was mid-year in 63. Don’t know that it’s a 63, or that many components on it are original to it. Can you ID the frame year from my picture?). I understand it was a Waterford paint job, I think it’s likely they got it right. The SN is hard to read under the paint, and I’m not inclined to scrap the paint.

mpetry912 

P12 is a pretty rare bike, the touring geometry and fender eyelets but with 10 speed gearing - double crank not triple.

/markp

bikingshearer 

Here is the article on Paramount serial numbers from the Waterford web site. (You may already know about this, but here it is anyway.) I get that you may not want to scrape paint, but is the number clear enough to tell whether it has three alphanumeric digits or four? If so, that could tell you whether the frame is from 1965 or earlier vs. 1966 or later.

It could be the camera angle, but the lettering doesn't look quite right to me, either - the lines of the letters look a little too thick/wide to my eye. Like I said, it could just be the camera angle, or I could be completely out to lunch (wouldn't be the first time). Edit: I just saw your other thread and looked again at the photo above and I take it all back; the lettering is a bit out of focus and blurry as shown by the starburst, making the letters look a bit out of proportion. The photos in your other thread show that they aren't. They also show that (a) the paint is original or (b) whoever did the lug lining on a repaint did it the way it was done originally, meaning the lines are a millimeter or two out from the lug edge, rather right up against the lugs like most people.

it also doesn't much matter; you have a cool bike with some cool touches. Thanks for sharing it with us.

75lechamp 

Very cool old P12! I am curious about where the serial number is on the earlier P12s. I have a December '67 P12 (I don't think it is a touring model, but I do know it is a P12 based on non chrome lugs), original Campus Green, and the serial number is both on the non drive side rear dropout and also the steerer (M711 - 11th frame in December 67). This was after they changed the numbering scheme, and also well after they went away from the "Disneyland" font.



M711 on rear dropout

M711 on steerer tube

merziac

Well I can't be sure and at the end of the day it doesn't matter much, the s/n will tell for certain.

I looked at the other pics again and the DS lettering looks correct so maybe the camera angle or something on the NDS but the they sure look like "balloon" font letters with rounded corners from here, so are both sides the same?

We need a good pic of the NDS and closer to bike as well, s/n too as best you can.

Waterford wouldn't have obscured the s/n with too thick paint, Richard is the best in the business at making sure the continuity of originality was maintained.

He is very proud of the heritage and Paramounts prominently displaying their s/n's for all to see.

I also don't think Schwinn ever used the TI Reynolds decal on these and Richard wouldn't have either if he didn't absolutely have to, he would have had correct ones made.

So I may be wrong after all but don't think so, the FD if truly correct could put it even earlier like maybe 59-60, maybe, again the s/n will solve this, the font on the NDS looks off to me so a better pic would help.

The steerer has the s/n as well so it might be easier to pull and look at it, I agree with not hurting the paint.

merziac

And don't get me wrong, I'm all in on all Paramount's regardless, love this one too but like Richard, I like to make sure we know what we're seeing, if something is different, it gets called out so we can run it down and hopefully learn more when we're not sure.

Paging @trainman999

repechage

reynolds 531 graphic is from the middle 1970’s
the diagonal 531 type got Schwinn in trouble as the reading of it literally indicated that everything was double butted.
not the case but a steely eyed attorney exploited things.

note the crank arms are the 1968 or earlier shape- less chamfer around the perimeter.
are they 151 BCD?

tiger1964 

Man, I find that FD housing hard to get a shiny finish on, no matter how much I polish it.

merziac

That's because its Campy's version of "pot" metal, not much in there that will respond to elbow grease.

ejw

151bcd.

merziac

So can we have some more pics, NDS DT and s/n best you can plz?

ejw

Will snap a pic. I’m sorry NDS DT?

cb400bill

Non Drive Side Down Tube

merziac

Sorry too, non driveside down tube, both sides actually, drive side too plz, straight on from the sides.

ejw

The best I can resolve the SN. The paint has a clear over it, and the decals as well.

ejw

Since the bearings are caged, and I needed to adjust the stem anyway, I pulled the forks. SN B705.

merziac

Excellent!

Ok, tx, my bad, the other pic of the NDS decal was really skewed from here to me so I stand corrected, sorry.

Looks like 70th frame built Feb. 1965, 151 BCD and the FD are interesting on this, many did have the 151 but the catalog specs a Record FD so....

Here's Bob Freeman's stunning 1964 original spec beauty.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/837910...57672093441434

trainman999

merziac B705 is Febuary 1967 the fifth frane that month. To me the decal letters look slghtly thick like vinyl transfers you would have to run your fingertip over them to be positive. A 66 frame for comparison

ejw

Perhaps it’s the clear coat that gives the impression of thick letters.

merziac

DOH!

Yep, transposed the digits, I thought something was off all along, the 151 is still a bit odd despite them being made until 1966 when the OP's bike was being specced.

The FD is way out of place then.

And that was my point about the lettering from this pic.

abdon 

Mine is a 1970 P-15, triple campy crank and Rally long cage derailleur. It is an awesome bike to click the miles away but it doesn't like to be overloaded, it gets sluggish.