False sense of security?
#26
Cantilever believer
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 566 Post(s)
Liked 1,958 Times
in
881 Posts
I've been on group rides where the "leaders" blow through red lights, and I've been caught when the light changes before the entire group gets through the green. I just yell "STOPPING!" and do my best to not cause anyone to pile into me. If I get left behind while the rest ride on oblivious to the dangers, so be it. I've been called a few nasty names for doing that, but I don't care. I've been hit before, (not running a light or stop sign) and know that it hurts.
At stop signs, the group usually slows, and everyone checks for cross traffic before proceeding, yelling "CLEAR!" if it's okay to proceed. That gets repeated by every 3rd or 4th rider in line.
At stop signs, the group usually slows, and everyone checks for cross traffic before proceeding, yelling "CLEAR!" if it's okay to proceed. That gets repeated by every 3rd or 4th rider in line.
If I'm not the leader, and the group proceeds through an intersection to which my judgment says "yield or stop", then I resign myself to seeing them go on ahead of me, and figure it's for the best.
I'm not a fan of "clear", most notably because if a person calls it, and for some reason the intersection isn't quite clear, they could be looking at significant added risk exposure should someone be seriously injured at the location and the chain of causation traces back through the rider's conscious decision to yell it. The existence of club insurance doesn't necessarily fully protect a rider who could be seen as willfully or recklessly negligent, as injured riders could name them as an added defendant. It's one of those things that can become a habit that doesn't cause a problem... until it does, and then it can be big. In our groups, we don't encourage it, and remind new riders who do so in as friendly a way as we can that they may see risk exposure due to their action. Again, the expectation is that even though they're in a group, every rider is responsible for their own safety and intersection gap acceptance decisions.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Last edited by RCMoeur; 09-06-23 at 01:17 PM.
Likes For RCMoeur:
#27
Cantilever believer
Join Date: Nov 2021
Location: Phoenix, AZ
Posts: 1,656
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 566 Post(s)
Liked 1,958 Times
in
881 Posts
Groups differ. Some act like a law unto themselves, whereas others follow the spirit if not the letter of the law. I would not ride with a group that blew through stop LIGHTS, but I would (and have) with a group that may roll stop signs if it's safe to do so, like a 4-way stop with long sight lines and no other traffic.
Other commentors have noted that other influences (such as online ride tracking competitions) can have an effect on rider decisionmaking at intersections.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
#28
Banned
It is important to operate your bike/vehicle in a lawful manner if you want other motorists to respect your right to be on the road. Dumb to do otherwise.
#29
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 6,080
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4026 Post(s)
Liked 7,568 Times
in
3,041 Posts
Sure, but my experience is that the motorists that complain the most are ignorant of the law and often protest when cyclists are doing something perfectly legal.
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,639
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7707 Post(s)
Liked 3,638 Times
in
1,913 Posts
Everybody b!7ches about some things for no reason.
Yes, some drivers are offended by the mere presence of cyclists. Screw them. They are lost and hopeless, and are probably as miserable as they try to make everyone else. They are their own penalties.
A lot of drivers are somewhere in the middle ... will tolerate and even sometimes accommodate cyclists, but will get irritated if held u p ... but hey, people get irritated by traffic lights and stop signs. People are stupid. Those drivers won't appreciate your following the law, but will notice if you break the law ... mostly thinking, "That SoB got ahead of me .... " They don't care abut the law, they just don't want Anyone to pass them. (Cracks me up when, in stop-and-go traffic, people will lay on their horns or even try to squeeze into the next lane to pass me, because I move slowly to the car ahead and let several feet open up .... because getting six feet forward Now (and then sitting) is better than rolling slowly .....)
Some drivers are kind to riders and probably do appreciate when you slow a little to let them go ahead or give them room or just signal in whatever way to make their passage easier .....
I care for the half in the middle and the quarter on top ... the slime-sucking dirtbags will hate whatever crosses their paths whatever .....
So to me it makes sense to follow the laws, at least when there is a fellow road-user nearby.
Yes, some drivers are offended by the mere presence of cyclists. Screw them. They are lost and hopeless, and are probably as miserable as they try to make everyone else. They are their own penalties.
A lot of drivers are somewhere in the middle ... will tolerate and even sometimes accommodate cyclists, but will get irritated if held u p ... but hey, people get irritated by traffic lights and stop signs. People are stupid. Those drivers won't appreciate your following the law, but will notice if you break the law ... mostly thinking, "That SoB got ahead of me .... " They don't care abut the law, they just don't want Anyone to pass them. (Cracks me up when, in stop-and-go traffic, people will lay on their horns or even try to squeeze into the next lane to pass me, because I move slowly to the car ahead and let several feet open up .... because getting six feet forward Now (and then sitting) is better than rolling slowly .....)
Some drivers are kind to riders and probably do appreciate when you slow a little to let them go ahead or give them room or just signal in whatever way to make their passage easier .....
I care for the half in the middle and the quarter on top ... the slime-sucking dirtbags will hate whatever crosses their paths whatever .....
So to me it makes sense to follow the laws, at least when there is a fellow road-user nearby.
Likes For Maelochs:
#31
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,863
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2142 Post(s)
Liked 1,655 Times
in
835 Posts
I doubt seriously that these riders are "blowing" stop signs without making some effort to ensure there is no cross traffic coming.
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,639
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7707 Post(s)
Liked 3,638 Times
in
1,913 Posts
Whatever ... no one is forced to do much, and no one much cares if a bunch of people shouting "Strava!" get mowed down .... oh, wait, we do, and usually blame the drivers.
Anyway .... who does really care about some hypothetical group of riders engaging in some hypothetical behavior?
#33
don't try this at home.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: N. KY
Posts: 5,981
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 988 Post(s)
Liked 534 Times
in
366 Posts
I'm retired, so I mostly ride on weekday mornings. I mostly ride with a varied list of like-minded riders. If the group size is around 3 to 6 riders, that's just about perfect. It's a large enough group to be very visible, and small enough to for a call out of "let the car pass" will work -- we often slow or pull off on roads where it's hard for cars to have sight lines to easily pass. Ahhh, peace and quiet again after a 10 second pause! And the group can handle the occasional flat or mechanical efficiently, and can deal with farm dogs more effectively than a solo rider.
Groups over 8 or 9 riders can't make these impromptu decisions, they are often too spread out to get the word. And cars have more trouble passing with the larger groups.
Groups over 8 or 9 riders can't make these impromptu decisions, they are often too spread out to get the word. And cars have more trouble passing with the larger groups.
Likes For rm -rf:
#34
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,463
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Liked 711 Times
in
476 Posts
A sense of 'security' in ANY Group ride is an illusion... a group ride should always have a rider at their highest sense of alertness.
Running Lights - NOT Recommended... never know when someone makes a decision they have green and gonna GO ! Of if the Po-Po are also at the intersection. Is it worth it?
Blowing Stop signs - in residential areas, at least be certain you have full clear in every direction, well in advance of reaching the stop. Make sure pedestrians get preferential treatment by you. Want Respect? Give Respect? Self-Respect is always doing to others what you'd like others to do to you...
I get it, Hard ride, good workout, love of effort... yeah, but, when it becomes 'make-believe racing' , it's Boneheaded...
we have lots of group rides in these parts, and a mix of 'bonehead racing' and then those with solid, strong, considered riders - easy choice...
Ride On
Yuri
#35
just another gosling
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Everett, WA
Posts: 19,616
Bikes: CoMo Speedster 2003, Trek 5200, CAAD 9, Fred 2004
Mentioned: 115 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3918 Post(s)
Liked 1,982 Times
in
1,414 Posts
This depends on the leader. I used to lead and learned from the leader before me. I saw anyone screwing up, like riding out in the lane when it's not necessary or doing anything I don't like, I council them. I'd maybe council them twice and then take their email off the list. No giving fingers to passing vehicles, either. We had a bad experience when a rider did that, luckily no injuries. The group is invitation only. Over the decades, we had a couple paceline crashes and a rider killed when an oncoming car came across the street and took out a rider in the middle of the line. Otherwise, no injuries that I can recall. Invitation only and newbies to the group had to be babysat for two rides. Gotta learn the culture.
We never run lights, though we do roll through stop signs though slow enough that we could stop. We soft pedal and wait for anyone cut off by a light. Our motto is "Safe, cooperative riding." We don't however, wait for dropees though we'll leave a couple folks with a rider who has a flat. I used to tell folks who were having a hard time to just hold their wheel until the blood spurts from the eye sockets, then drop off. Just a few rides like that and they'd stay with us.
We never run lights, though we do roll through stop signs though slow enough that we could stop. We soft pedal and wait for anyone cut off by a light. Our motto is "Safe, cooperative riding." We don't however, wait for dropees though we'll leave a couple folks with a rider who has a flat. I used to tell folks who were having a hard time to just hold their wheel until the blood spurts from the eye sockets, then drop off. Just a few rides like that and they'd stay with us.
__________________
Results matter
Results matter
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2021
Posts: 2,022
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2741 Post(s)
Liked 492 Times
in
356 Posts
I don't think this kind of behavior is common in rides with leaders, rules, regroup points, etc. This is what happens in the "race simulator" rides where there are no regroups, the leaders are whoever is in front, and people don't want to get dropped so they preserve speed. In these kinds of rides, being predictable and holding your line are paramount for safety, and if you freeze or up swerve instead of following the rider in front of you into the intersection or whathaveyou, you can cause the riders behind you to crash. This is why I said the safest thing is to follow the pack, and if the pack is too boneheaded for you then don't ride with them.
You can try to change the groups behavior, complain on the online facebook group or whatever there is, people love drama posts like that.
You can try to change the groups behavior, complain on the online facebook group or whatever there is, people love drama posts like that.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked 441 Times
in
256 Posts
Personally, I feel it is more a mob mentality than a false sense of security.
As others have stated above, this is the major reason why I rarely do group rides. IME, rides of up to about a half dozen riders are usually pretty good. When you get much over that number, it can get dicey. Some of the B rides can be OK with larger groups, and IME the chill factor goes up with increasing average age of the participants. (I'm pretty slow, though, so I'm not riding with Masters level racers.)
As others have stated above, this is the major reason why I rarely do group rides. IME, rides of up to about a half dozen riders are usually pretty good. When you get much over that number, it can get dicey. Some of the B rides can be OK with larger groups, and IME the chill factor goes up with increasing average age of the participants. (I'm pretty slow, though, so I'm not riding with Masters level racers.)
Likes For noimagination:
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 739
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 374 Post(s)
Liked 441 Times
in
256 Posts
This depends on the leader. I used to lead and learned from the leader before me. I saw anyone screwing up, like riding out in the lane when it's not necessary or doing anything I don't like, I council them. I'd maybe council them twice and then take their email off the list. No giving fingers to passing vehicles, either. We had a bad experience when a rider did that, luckily no injuries. The group is invitation only. Over the decades, we had a couple paceline crashes and a rider killed when an oncoming car came across the street and took out a rider in the middle of the line. Otherwise, no injuries that I can recall. Invitation only and newbies to the group had to be babysat for two rides. Gotta learn the culture.
#39
OM boy
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Goleta CA
Posts: 4,463
Bikes: a bunch
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 553 Post(s)
Liked 711 Times
in
476 Posts
I don't think this kind of behavior is common in rides with leaders, rules, regroup points, etc. This is what happens in the "race simulator" rides where there are no regroups, the leaders are whoever is in front, and people don't want to get dropped so they preserve speed. In these kinds of rides, being predictable and holding your line are paramount for safety, and if you freeze or up swerve instead of following the rider in front of you into the intersection or whathaveyou, you can cause the riders behind you to crash. This is why I said the safest thing is to follow the pack, and if the pack is too boneheaded for you then don't ride with them.
You can try to change the groups behavior, complain on the online facebook group or whatever there is, people love drama posts like that.
You can try to change the groups behavior, complain on the online facebook group or whatever there is, people love drama posts like that.
You join, you know what to expect, no quarter given. Those few rides, like this, mostly roll over backroads, with very few lights and stops, many of which come well into the ride, so loked forward to for quick breather and possible regroup for those struggling just off the back. And Bonehead moves are NEVER forgotten by the group, eventually your 'reputation', is baggage you will always carry...
When younger, I thought these were 'safe', because a Large group is hard for a cager to ignore, unless you have ill intent... But crap happens... so a major flaw in thinking I no longer make.
There are plenty of other groups, with leaders, or regulars who provide some encouragement and counseling. A way different animal. And some are 'hard,fast'. Those are great.
Given that, it's best to never surrender your own better sense to 'group mentality'. It's YOUR ride, make sure it's YOUR decision, when it comes to your safety...
Ride On
Yuri
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: US
Posts: 811
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 408 Post(s)
Liked 184 Times
in
120 Posts
I have noticed the gang mentality, swerving and driving like they are the only ones on the road, like those who text and talk on cell phones. I don't fault them because they are cyclists. I see the same with drivers in a parking lot, completely unaware of themselves.
Thanks for the thread, you may have saved several lives.
Thanks for the thread, you may have saved several lives.
#41
-------
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Tejas
Posts: 12,827
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9678 Post(s)
Liked 6,394 Times
in
3,515 Posts
I do group rides for the camaraderie and the VO2max intervals. It's a "safe" group: small and private, mostly old, mostly sensible when stationary, and most with a racing background and good bike handling skills. Despite that, it's far more dangerous than riding solo. The only thing I feel slightly better about is a physical fight with a motorist, something I've gotten the worse of in the past. However, I assume everyone has a gun now anyway so that part might even be an added risk.
#42
• —
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Land of Pleasant Living
Posts: 12,319
Bikes: Shmikes
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10222 Post(s)
Liked 5,945 Times
in
3,203 Posts
#43
-------
Join Date: Jul 2020
Location: Tejas
Posts: 12,827
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9678 Post(s)
Liked 6,394 Times
in
3,515 Posts
Don't fall.
#45
For The Fun of It
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Louisissippi Coast
Posts: 5,863
Bikes: Lynskey GR300, Lynskey Backroad, Litespeed T6, Lynskey MT29, Burley Duet
Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2142 Post(s)
Liked 1,655 Times
in
835 Posts
Sure ... but the issue isn't that 99.6% of the time they make it ... this issues are several, primary (IMO) being that this behavior annoys cyclists, drivers, pedestrians ... anyone who sees it. Secondary being that sometimes those cursory glances are not enough ... or that shout of "Clear" meant "Clear for about half us if we hurry" and such, which leads to close calls, avoidances, and is generally unsafe and unsocial.
Whatever ... no one is forced to do much, and no one much cares if a bunch of people shouting "Strava!" get mowed down .... oh, wait, we do, and usually blame the drivers.
Anyway .... who does really care about some hypothetical group of riders engaging in some hypothetical behavior?
Whatever ... no one is forced to do much, and no one much cares if a bunch of people shouting "Strava!" get mowed down .... oh, wait, we do, and usually blame the drivers.
Anyway .... who does really care about some hypothetical group of riders engaging in some hypothetical behavior?
Likes For Paul Barnard:
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: San Diego
Posts: 717
Bikes: 1978 Bruce Gordon, 1977 Lippy, 199? Lippy tandem, Bike Friday NWT, 1982 Trek 720, 2012 Rivendell Atlantis, 1983 Bianchi Specialissima?
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Liked 186 Times
in
114 Posts
If groups of riders were as routinely carelessly "blowing" stop signs as the OP, other riders and motorists often suggest they do, surely we'd be able to easily find reports of motorists taking out a group. I can't recall a single instance of a motorist taking out a group of cyclists "blowing" through a stop sign. The bottom line is that people largely exaggerate and make up "blowing" through stop sign stories.
#47
Newbie
Thread Starter
If groups of riders were as routinely carelessly "blowing" stop signs as the OP, other riders and motorists often suggest they do, surely we'd be able to easily find reports of motorists taking out a group. I can't recall a single instance of a motorist taking out a group of cyclists "blowing" through a stop sign. The bottom line is that people largely exaggerate and make up "blowing" through stop sign stories.
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,639
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7707 Post(s)
Liked 3,638 Times
in
1,913 Posts
Whether or not a lot of cyclists are killed doing something .... I mean, fewer than 1000 cyclists tend to get killed per year nationwide .... but as I mentioned above, the mass murder of ignorant cyclists isn't really the most important issue.
#50
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,491 Times
in
1,286 Posts
I frequently run through reds and stops but I do it alone and make sure it's safe to so. I wouldn't trust some performance obsessed group or group leader to make decisions for me. The way that most roadie groups ride is absolutely moronic.