15 minute cities
#26
Prefers Cicero
#28
Prefers Cicero
Basically, the concept seems to be concentrated on separating a person from their car. Sorry, but restricting a person's ability to travel by means of further "taxation" is a form of control. Vehicle ownership already has numerous costs designed to support the highway system. Conspiracy or not, where does this new tax money go?
Has anybody given any consideration how easily another pandemic would spread in one of these cities? There seems to be a utopian vision that everybody will be happy and mingling in the empty streets. Sorry for the questioning attitude- still waiting for the source of the first pandemic to be divulged.
Overall, the concept sounds efficient. Most likely a good idea. I still don't think there is much variation from what already exists in larger cities. In NY, it seemed that a person needed to be "well off" to afford the expense of vehicle ownership. It appears that the 15 minute city concept envisions that process as well. As always, the source of issues occurs when some try to force their ideas onto others.
Has anybody given any consideration how easily another pandemic would spread in one of these cities? There seems to be a utopian vision that everybody will be happy and mingling in the empty streets. Sorry for the questioning attitude- still waiting for the source of the first pandemic to be divulged.
Overall, the concept sounds efficient. Most likely a good idea. I still don't think there is much variation from what already exists in larger cities. In NY, it seemed that a person needed to be "well off" to afford the expense of vehicle ownership. It appears that the 15 minute city concept envisions that process as well. As always, the source of issues occurs when some try to force their ideas onto others.
And it's not going to somehow be imposed abruptly and willy-nilly on sprawling suburban areas where you currently can't function without a car. It will happen gradually over maybe a generation or two of better planning and incentives.
Last edited by cooker; 09-11-23 at 04:43 PM.
#30
Newbie
Valid points. You might add that the highway system also serves as a route for goods to be delivered. Many of those emission spewing vehicles tend do deliver just about everything we consume. I might add bikes and parts to the list, LOL. Most cities have also thrived and grown with the convenience of cost effective shipping. As transportation costs rise, the price of consumables will inevitably rise. Tolls were $25 to drive a truck into NY 40 years ago. I can only imagine what that cost is now.
I remember a picture of Altoona in the 50's. Streetcar tracks in the center of the road taking people to the business district. They are gone now. Affordable cars replaced the need for public transportation. I agree that it should take a while and change is inevitable. Fine by me-gives me some time to run out the clock.
Everybody has their own ideas of convenience and freedom. I made a good friend in NY while working there in the 80's. He said he moved to Montana for a while, then missed the city and returned.
Myself, I prefer more rural areas. Personally, I feel that it will take a lot to convince people like me that the convenience will be worth it. However, I don't foresee living in the city.
I remember a picture of Altoona in the 50's. Streetcar tracks in the center of the road taking people to the business district. They are gone now. Affordable cars replaced the need for public transportation. I agree that it should take a while and change is inevitable. Fine by me-gives me some time to run out the clock.
Everybody has their own ideas of convenience and freedom. I made a good friend in NY while working there in the 80's. He said he moved to Montana for a while, then missed the city and returned.
Myself, I prefer more rural areas. Personally, I feel that it will take a lot to convince people like me that the convenience will be worth it. However, I don't foresee living in the city.
#31
If we are talking about America, less than 2% of the country is urban, and more than 85% of America’s population lives on this 2%. Not all of these urban areas are “15 minute cities,” but commuting distances, with some exceptions, are short.
There are no public policies mandating the formation of cities, they tend to form on their own to facilitate economic activity. So long as public safety, sanitation, necessary services and utilities are maintained, cities de well enough on their own. Unfortunately, such is not the case with too many of our cities, in which recent changes in city policies have resulted in large increases in addiction, homelessness, crime, and violence. These have resulted in outward migration, and most of America’s largest cities are seeing significant declines in their populations.
There are no public policies mandating the formation of cities, they tend to form on their own to facilitate economic activity. So long as public safety, sanitation, necessary services and utilities are maintained, cities de well enough on their own. Unfortunately, such is not the case with too many of our cities, in which recent changes in city policies have resulted in large increases in addiction, homelessness, crime, and violence. These have resulted in outward migration, and most of America’s largest cities are seeing significant declines in their populations.
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#32
Newbie
If we are talking about America, less than 2% of the country is urban, and more than 85% of America’s population lives on this 2%. Not all of these urban areas are “15 minute cities,” but commuting distances, with some exceptions, are short.
There are no public policies mandating the formation of cities, they tend to form on their own to facilitate economic activity. So long as public safety, sanitation, necessary services and utilities are maintained, cities de well enough on their own. Unfortunately, such is not the case with too many of our cities, in which recent changes in city policies have resulted in large increases in addiction, homelessness, crime, and violence. These have resulted in outward migration, and most of America’s largest cities are seeing significant declines in their populations.
There are no public policies mandating the formation of cities, they tend to form on their own to facilitate economic activity. So long as public safety, sanitation, necessary services and utilities are maintained, cities de well enough on their own. Unfortunately, such is not the case with too many of our cities, in which recent changes in city policies have resulted in large increases in addiction, homelessness, crime, and violence. These have resulted in outward migration, and most of America’s largest cities are seeing significant declines in their populations.
Living in rural areas is not always fun, either. More populous areas always have more opportunities for career paths. I chose rural; the next person might choose the city. No right or wrong answer-personal choice. I'll just forge ahead as normal. I don't drive much. I put more miles on my bikes than my pick-up. However, I'm not currently willing to give up either on a whim or futuristic trend.
#33
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Man, the vilification of "let's plan our cities better so people don't have to drive as far to get what they need" is mind-blowing.
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#34
bOsscO
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I live in a city of 75K which is often called a 'suburb' of a larger city with a population almost 10X as large. I'm all for 15-minute cities.
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#35
Prefers Cicero
Valid points. You might add that the highway system also serves as a route for goods to be delivered. Many of those emission spewing vehicles tend do deliver just about everything we consume. I might add bikes and parts to the list, LOL. Most cities have also thrived and grown with the convenience of cost effective shipping. As transportation costs rise, the price of consumables will inevitably rise. Tolls were $25 to drive a truck into NY 40 years ago. I can only imagine what that cost is now.
I remember a picture of Altoona in the 50's. Streetcar tracks in the center of the road taking people to the business district. They are gone now. Affordable cars replaced the need for public transportation. I agree that it should take a while and change is inevitable. Fine by me-gives me some time to run out the clock.
Everybody has their own ideas of convenience and freedom. I made a good friend in NY while working there in the 80's. He said he moved to Montana for a while, then missed the city and returned.
Myself, I prefer more rural areas. Personally, I feel that it will take a lot to convince people like me that the convenience will be worth it. However, I don't foresee living in the city.
I remember a picture of Altoona in the 50's. Streetcar tracks in the center of the road taking people to the business district. They are gone now. Affordable cars replaced the need for public transportation. I agree that it should take a while and change is inevitable. Fine by me-gives me some time to run out the clock.
Everybody has their own ideas of convenience and freedom. I made a good friend in NY while working there in the 80's. He said he moved to Montana for a while, then missed the city and returned.
Myself, I prefer more rural areas. Personally, I feel that it will take a lot to convince people like me that the convenience will be worth it. However, I don't foresee living in the city.
However, 15 minute rural towns used to be more of a thing. The hardware store, pharmacy, bank, Sears outlet, and soda fountain were all side by side on Main Street. You could be like the 5 year old kid in the Springsteen song allowed to go to the corner on his own to get his Dad a newspaper. Now they're all gone and everybody drives to the Walmart a couple of towns over.
Fewer cars on the road would make things a lot easier for truck drivers.
Last edited by cooker; 09-13-23 at 10:46 AM.
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#36
Prefers Cicero
EDIT: and London will suddenly not want tourists?
Last edited by cooker; 09-13-23 at 11:15 AM.
#37
Live not by lies.
That is never going to happen. Do you think anybody you know would accept that? Is New York going to kick everybody off the subway at every second stop so they don't stray from their zone? Only people who live near Yosemite or the Grand Canyon or the Golden Gate Bridge will get to take a selfie there? You think all those store, restaurant, and resort owners are going to just passively think "Oh well, I guess we'll just make do"? Get real.
EDIT: and London will suddenly not want tourists?
EDIT: and London will suddenly not want tourists?
What makes you think it couldn’t happen?
#38
Junior Member
khan's already put ulez in place £12.50 / day if you drive a vehicle that doesn't meet his criteria. And this is all off the back of some very dodgy reports on London's pollution... so it is easily predicatable.
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#39
Prefers Cicero
Who would want it? How would they implement it? Why would they do it? How would they get the public to comply? Why would businesses support it? What purpose would it serve? It's just trolling or fearmongering.
#40
Newbie
We can argue this till the end of time. I see it as two different discussions combined.
One discussion concerns proper, efficient planning for a city which makes all resources easily accessible. Noble and virtuous thoughts.
The other discussion basically concerns maintaining an individual's right to choose. Rykard's point is one of the numerous regulations that crosses my mind. How is this tax going to mitigate the "climate crisis"? Where does the money actually go? Can we buy our way out of climate change? Or, is this all just a ploy to get $$$ into the big guys wallet? Or, is it a means of taking a person's only means of transportation?
I am sure there are factors which escape my small brain. However, all things need to be considered before any facet of this discussion would be implemented. There aren't many options where I live; you need transportation. No bus stops around here.
My apologies if I led this thread in the wrong direction. Furthermore, I think this is relevant because all sides of a topic should be visited. The current trend seems to be leaning towards diminishing car ownership. Let's not get too involved in arguing and allow that to happen before there are viable alternatives in place.
One discussion concerns proper, efficient planning for a city which makes all resources easily accessible. Noble and virtuous thoughts.
The other discussion basically concerns maintaining an individual's right to choose. Rykard's point is one of the numerous regulations that crosses my mind. How is this tax going to mitigate the "climate crisis"? Where does the money actually go? Can we buy our way out of climate change? Or, is this all just a ploy to get $$$ into the big guys wallet? Or, is it a means of taking a person's only means of transportation?
I am sure there are factors which escape my small brain. However, all things need to be considered before any facet of this discussion would be implemented. There aren't many options where I live; you need transportation. No bus stops around here.
My apologies if I led this thread in the wrong direction. Furthermore, I think this is relevant because all sides of a topic should be visited. The current trend seems to be leaning towards diminishing car ownership. Let's not get too involved in arguing and allow that to happen before there are viable alternatives in place.
#41
Cantilever believer
I see this argumentation as a symptom of a loss of trust of a large swath of the population in the political powers that be, and in the experts they cited.
And it's not because they read it on some (insert derogatory term here) blog or news source. It's because they've seen the flip-flops and "rules for thee but not for me", and on top of that the denials of aforementioned behavior - as compared to what they've seen and experienced, often firsthand.
Trust lost is almost never regained, and especially not by coercion (financial or otherwise).
And this makes my professional life a lot harder. My biggest client advises the Federal Highway Administration on national traffic standards, and so their expert advice may now go unheeded by association.
And it's not because they read it on some (insert derogatory term here) blog or news source. It's because they've seen the flip-flops and "rules for thee but not for me", and on top of that the denials of aforementioned behavior - as compared to what they've seen and experienced, often firsthand.
Trust lost is almost never regained, and especially not by coercion (financial or otherwise).
And this makes my professional life a lot harder. My biggest client advises the Federal Highway Administration on national traffic standards, and so their expert advice may now go unheeded by association.
__________________
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
Richard C. Moeur, PE - Phoenix AZ, USA
https://www.richardcmoeur.com/bikestuf.html
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#42
Newbie
When I bought my last Bull Terrier, I had to drive to New Hampshire to pick her up. Although there were no toll booths, I received a bill for driving in a state whose motto is "live free or die". Go figure. They had big riggings which recorded your license plate number.
Trust me-they have the technology as long as there is money involved!
Trust me-they have the technology as long as there is money involved!
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#43
I am potato.
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I'm satisfied with my "low density housing". Not everybody wants to live on top of each other. I understand that it makes sense on paper; however, it doesn't sound like fun if you don't have good neighbors. In this area, the high density housing is way cheaper due to lack of desirability.
Again- I think it should be up to an individual; not some politician that lives in a mansion on top of a hill.
Again- I think it should be up to an individual; not some politician that lives in a mansion on top of a hill.
It is well known that the highest value per acer is in the dense urban cores and the least population dense areas are the most subsidized. So long as you are ok with a non-economically viable way of life that relies on the charity and patriotism of others or paying a full tax-load equal to or greater than your total annual income...Sure. Your desires make a lot of sense. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is.
__________________
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
#44
Newbie
I see this argumentation as a symptom of a loss of trust of a large swath of the population in the political powers that be, and in the experts they cited.
And it's not because they read it on some (insert derogatory term here) blog or news source. It's because they've seen the flip-flops and "rules for thee but not for me", and on top of that the denials of aforementioned behavior - as compared to what they've seen and experienced, often firsthand.
Trust lost is almost never regained, and especially not by coercion (financial or otherwise).
And this makes my professional life a lot harder. My biggest client advises the Federal Highway Administration on national traffic standards, and so their expert advice may now go unheeded by association.
And it's not because they read it on some (insert derogatory term here) blog or news source. It's because they've seen the flip-flops and "rules for thee but not for me", and on top of that the denials of aforementioned behavior - as compared to what they've seen and experienced, often firsthand.
Trust lost is almost never regained, and especially not by coercion (financial or otherwise).
And this makes my professional life a lot harder. My biggest client advises the Federal Highway Administration on national traffic standards, and so their expert advice may now go unheeded by association.
#45
Newbie
What urban service? Who's running the numbers on that racket? I pay more taxes on my property than many residences in closer proximity to the city. Half the time, I lock in the four wheel drive if going to work early in the winter.
We live in different ends of the country. Less population=less services required.
I bet the taxes and the properties are high compared to my location. I also be that there is very little accomplished with the taxes paid into the big machine.
We live in different ends of the country. Less population=less services required.
I bet the taxes and the properties are high compared to my location. I also be that there is very little accomplished with the taxes paid into the big machine.
#46
Newbie
That's all fine and well and good. How about the taxes necessary to support your desire for urban services at rural density?
It is well known that the highest value per acer is in the dense urban cores and the least population dense areas are the most subsidized. So long as you are ok with a non-economically viable way of life that relies on the charity and patriotism of others or paying a full tax-load equal to or greater than your total annual income...Sure. Your desires make a lot of sense. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is.
It is well known that the highest value per acer is in the dense urban cores and the least population dense areas are the most subsidized. So long as you are ok with a non-economically viable way of life that relies on the charity and patriotism of others or paying a full tax-load equal to or greater than your total annual income...Sure. Your desires make a lot of sense. Let's see you put your money where your mouth is.
Crap, we only have volunteer fire companies. No local police forces. No public transportation. I pay a private company for trash removal. Probably a primitive setup compared to your location.
Again, We live at different ends of the country; I'm probably overlooking something. If we traded locations, we would probably both think we were in different countries.
Thanks
#47
Senior Member
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When I bought my last Bull Terrier, I had to drive to New Hampshire to pick her up. Although there were no toll booths, I received a bill for driving in a state whose motto is "live free or die". Go figure. They had big riggings which recorded your license plate number.
Trust me-they have the technology as long as there is money involved!
Trust me-they have the technology as long as there is money involved!
__________________
#48
I am potato.
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Bully4
Not takin' the bait.
Not takin' the bait.
__________________
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
I shouldn't have to "make myself more visible;" Drivers should just stop running people over.
Car dependency is a tax.
#49
Live not by lies.
I don’t see a big difference from national borders. And the vax mandates are a recent memory.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stra...Hamlet_Program
#50
Newbie
My point isn't to insult residents of New Hampshire. My point is that there seems to be redundant taxation to support causes. Where does it all go? Blindly forking over money could serve to feed a corrupt process.