School me on electronic shifters
#76
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I have hears the rumors that a driving influence for 1X systems was SRAM’s inability to design and manufacture a functional front shifter and crank system, thus we got 1X. No idea how true, but up until this post I hade never been aware that there are complaints about the AXS or whatever it’s called road 2X SRAM systems. Shimano pretty much has it down with its Di2 2x systems. Even the mechanical 105 road systems are damn near perfect in terms of how they perform. I do know my SRAM AXS 1X mt. bike system is near on perfect as well,
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#77
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Well, for myself, coming from Etap it kinda was. The brand new bike I just spent over 5k on, in parts was 3lbs heavier than my other bikes. I carry my own weight penalty, And certainly didn't need anymore help in that area. That 3 lbs. Weighed on my mind (see what I did there?) To the point I didn't even want to ride it. Plus feeling like I had been down the bait and switch isle over every part of the build leaves a bitter aftertaste.
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Mechanical is "clumsy"? Pushing a lever for a well-adjusted derailleur is "clumsy"? Turning a knob half a turn is "clumsy"? What I gain from these operations is a sense of contact between myself and machine, similar to the one lovingly described in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," instead of forfeiting control of one more machine in my life to some black box. I cherish the Zen of maintaining my bike. And every shift I make is instantaneous and precise.
But hey, let's take the thought experiment one step further: What if the automatic transmission were wired to read your "mood" and then shift accordingly? Would you adopt it then? In other words, are you looking for the absolute easiest physical motion when shifting gears, or a way to avoid working on your bike. Other than those two reasons, I don't see the advantage of electronic shifting.
But hey, let's take the thought experiment one step further: What if the automatic transmission were wired to read your "mood" and then shift accordingly? Would you adopt it then? In other words, are you looking for the absolute easiest physical motion when shifting gears, or a way to avoid working on your bike. Other than those two reasons, I don't see the advantage of electronic shifting.
Coordination with head unit - may not matter to some, but personally I'm an inveterate "looker down at my cassette to see what gear I'm in"
Independence from cables - cables work fine, but they're still a weak link in the system - prone to friction, "stretching", open to the elements etc
Better shifting under load - shifting in both directions is active (motorized) rather than depending on a relatively weak derailleur spring on one direction
Are these important extras? Maybe not to everyone. Personally I'm happy with my mechanical setup and I enjoy the non-quantifiable "physical interaction" with mechanical, but I'll readily concede that electronic is objectively more efficient
#79
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It's hard to argue that electronic shifting isn't an objective advance over mechanical. Electronic will give you everything that a well-sorted mechanical setup will provide, plus a bunch of extras:
Coordination with head unit - may not matter to some, but personally I'm an inveterate "looker down at my cassette to see what gear I'm in"
Independence from cables - cables work fine, but they're still a weak link in the system - prone to friction, "stretching", open to the elements etc
Better shifting under load - shifting in both directions is active (motorized) rather than depending on a relatively weak derailleur spring on one direction
Are these important extras? Maybe not to everyone. Personally I'm happy with my mechanical setup and I enjoy the non-quantifiable "physical interaction" with mechanical, but I'll readily concede that electronic is objectively more efficient
Coordination with head unit - may not matter to some, but personally I'm an inveterate "looker down at my cassette to see what gear I'm in"
Independence from cables - cables work fine, but they're still a weak link in the system - prone to friction, "stretching", open to the elements etc
Better shifting under load - shifting in both directions is active (motorized) rather than depending on a relatively weak derailleur spring on one direction
Are these important extras? Maybe not to everyone. Personally I'm happy with my mechanical setup and I enjoy the non-quantifiable "physical interaction" with mechanical, but I'll readily concede that electronic is objectively more efficient
#80
Mechanical is "clumsy"? Pushing a lever for a well-adjusted derailleur is "clumsy"? Turning a knob half a turn is "clumsy"? What I gain from these operations is a sense of contact between myself and machine, similar to the one lovingly described in "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance," instead of forfeiting control of one more machine in my life to some black box. I cherish the Zen of maintaining my bike. And every shift I make is instantaneous and precise.
But hey, let's take the thought experiment one step further: What if the automatic transmission were wired to read your "mood" and then shift accordingly? Would you adopt it then? In other words, are you looking for the absolute easiest physical motion when shifting gears, or a way to avoid working on your bike. Other than those two reasons, I don't see the advantage of electronic shifting.
But hey, let's take the thought experiment one step further: What if the automatic transmission were wired to read your "mood" and then shift accordingly? Would you adopt it then? In other words, are you looking for the absolute easiest physical motion when shifting gears, or a way to avoid working on your bike. Other than those two reasons, I don't see the advantage of electronic shifting.
The auto “thought” experiment is going nowhere, lol.
I forgot to add that electronic shift still feels “mechanical” in its operation. My Kickr Bike even simulates the little kick you get when shifting gears. The shift levers also still have a mechanical feel to them. It’s the same with say PDK on a Porsche gearbox.
Last edited by PeteHski; 11-18-23 at 05:24 AM.
#81
I have heard the rumors that a driving influence for 1X systems was SRAM’s inability to design and manufacture a functional front shifter and crank system, thus we got 1X. No idea how true, but up until this post I hade never been aware that there are complaints about the AXS or whatever it’s called road 2X SRAM systems. Shimano pretty much has it down with its Di2 2x systems. Even the mechanical 105 road systems are damn near perfect in terms of how they perform. I do know my SRAM AXS 1X mt. bike system is near on perfect as well,
I think the FD is on borrowed time, but we can review that in another decade. I’m surprised it made it this far!
#82
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I have heard the rumors that a driving influence for 1X systems was SRAM’s inability to design and manufacture a functional front shifter and crank system, thus we got 1X. No idea how true, but up until this post I hade never been aware that there are complaints about the AXS or whatever it’s called road 2X SRAM systems. Shimano pretty much has it down with its Di2 2x systems. Even the mechanical 105 road systems are damn near perfect in terms of how they perform. I do know my SRAM AXS 1X mt. bike system is near on perfect as well,
1x was developed for mountain biking as it addressed the major issue with rear suspension.
#83
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I would also think that Specialties TA would make chain rings that work properly too, since they're so simple, but apparently they can't. The 44/28 rings that I tried had all of the problems that others assign to poor FD function with SRAM cranks. No amount of adjusting the FD stopped the chain drops to the outside. I switched back to my GRX rings and got my perfect shifting back immediately. It's not a FD problem. I've used two Campy cranks and seven GRX cranks and all worked perfectly with force and rival FDs. No special attention needed.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-18-23 at 10:57 AM.
#84
I don't think that was the main reason. I had 3x FS bikes without "major" suspension issues, but front shifting was often an issue on demanding technical trails, especially when muddy. 1x was a massive revelation for mtb across the board.
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#86
#87
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A couple of things:
1. The comments are all ignoring aliasfox's second objection to electronic shifting, the “ conceptual” objection. For me, that's the big one. My love for the bike is grounded in it being the “simple machine,” one that I can work on with no black boxes.
1. The comments are all ignoring aliasfox's second objection to electronic shifting, the “ conceptual” objection. For me, that's the big one. My love for the bike is grounded in it being the “simple machine,” one that I can work on with no black boxes.
2. A thought experiment concerning ease of shifting and lack of maintenance: Everyone seems to love electronic shifting because it works flawlessly and never requires any maintenance; it’s easy. What if an automatic transmission were available for bikes, one that shifted perfectly for the terrain the way auto transmissions do. And this transmission never required user maintenance, just a black box that required no user knowledge or skill or effort. Such an invention would take away the arduous tasks of pushing buttons and having to think about what gear to be in.
Assume that weight were not an issue. Would such an invention be a bridge too far for you, or would you be eager to adopt it? And what would be your reasoning?
Assume that weight were not an issue. Would such an invention be a bridge too far for you, or would you be eager to adopt it? And what would be your reasoning?
#88
Senior Member
FWIW, I kind of like the 13t difference. It's not quite as "abrupt" and generally a bit less rear shifting when going from big to small ring compared to my "compact" 50-34 cranks.
#89
Senior Member
My biggest gripe is the feel of the sram electronic groups is so much like the mechanical there's no difference in the feel. It takes me a while to get used to what I'm riding, coming from one to the other. If the Electronic version had say rubber coated and textured shifters. That would tell my brain I'm riding Etap not Mechanical. That would help a lot.
Maybe you're talking about the actual physical feel of the levers/hoods rather than the feel of how the shift levers work? If so, how much different would they have to be to make the transition from one to the other easier? I personally have never had a major issue going between Shimano mechanical, Sram mechanical, bar end, down tube. They might take about 1 minute or two to transition, a shift or two, and it really has nothing to do with how the hoods/levers/bars feel under my hands. It's just a matter of maybe missing a shift, or reaching for the bar end of DT shifter that isn't there, but often it is just get on and ride.
Last edited by Camilo; 11-18-23 at 07:08 PM.
#90
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The greatest development in suspension design was the move to 1x systems.
#91
Suspension designs such as the DW link and VPP were designed to give similar performance in all front chainring as compared to other systems. The HL could be tuned great in a single ring, but would have greatly reduced anti-squat in others.
The greatest development in suspension design was the move to 1x systems.
The greatest development in suspension design was the move to 1x systems.