Chain waxing question
#76
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You are assuming something that is not in evidence. Johns Hopkins University did a study of chain friction losses 20 years ago. They found very little loss of power due to the chain or chain friction. Essentially, they measured no heat being generated, even when the chain was unlubricated. The performance gains you think you are getting is nonexistant. Add in that more expensive chains…or “better chains”…don’t wear longer and I fail to see what the benefit is. In the last 40 years, I can only recall replacing a single chainwheel and my cassettes last around 12,000 miles. What more benefit can I get out of a $100 chain compared to a $20 chain?
You might enjoy:
https://www.cyclingabout.com/how-muc...slow-you-down/
https://zerofrictioncycling.com.au/chaintesting/
There are no doubt other sites with well documented testing procedures, but there's enough there to back up what I hear from people I trust, and to convince me that there are differences between chains and lubes, and those differences are worth my time and money to investigate.
I understand that you disagree. Your comments suggest I'm a fool being taken in by hucksters. I'm OK with you believing that. So I'll continue to follow the up to date published results and use the equipment and maintenance that I believe improves my bike's efficiency.
Have a great day.
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#77
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If you're going to cite a study, you should cite one that supports your conclusion. This is a 20+ yr old preliminary study published in a popular magazine, with a lot of missing information, and even the results they cite had a 17% difference between tests! There is also the major problem of testing efficiency through infrared photography rather than through direct measurement
Zero Friction is also a peer reviewed journal? Zero Friction is run by a published scientist? I also question the conclusions drawn on the Zero Friction website. He states that premium chains wear slower but only offers two examples that could be outliers. The other chains seem to fall within a similar range. There’s also nothing in his data to indicate what kind of error there is in the measurement.
I’ll trust the results from Johns Hopkins especially since the study is not just “preliminary” but published. If you wish, you can request a copy here. I no longer have access to the journal but I have read it in the past. Frictional losses isn’t an issue with bicycle chain drives.
There are no doubt other sites with well documented testing procedures, but there's enough there to back up what I hear from people I trust, and to convince me that there are differences between chains and lubes, and those differences are worth my time and money to investigate.
I understand that you disagree. Your comments suggest I'm a fool being taken in by hucksters. I'm OK with you believing that. So I'll continue to follow the up to date published results and use the equipment and maintenance that I believe improves my bike's efficiency.
Have a great day.
Have a great day.
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#78
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The data disagrees
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#79
Junior Member
I am a reformed chain slob who would just add more lube before the next commute until the dirt and grit wore the chain out. Now I use the Silca wax in a two 1.5 quart, 14 dollar, crock pot system as suggested by zerofriction.com.au. I just store the two pots on the workbench with wax. Pot one is the paraffin wax and pot two is the Silca wax. I put the chain in the first paraffin wax pot and turn them both on low and come back a little later in the evening and put the chain in pot two, swish it around and hang it up to drip into the now turned off pots. A little extra time before riding to reinstall the chain and overall this doesn't take much time every two or three weeks depending on conditions. Eventually after about 30 cycles, the first pot is thrown out and the second pot becomes the first pot with clean wax in the second pot. The initial cleaning of new chains is the biggest pain of the system. I do like and use some of the Silca products but I take the charlatan/engineer with a grain of salt and don't quite believe everything. I'm not quite convinced the super secret chain cleaner isn't just some repackaged common solvent but I will probably give it a try. Zerofriction doesn't always have his latest info published but he will talk about it on his Friday YouTube channel for the too much information people.
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allan6344 The dual pot system sounds like a pretty good idea.
What is the easiest and/or cleanest way to empty pot #1 when you decide that the old wax is too contaminated?
What is the easiest and/or cleanest way to empty pot #1 when you decide that the old wax is too contaminated?
#81
Junior Member
allan6344 The dual pot system sounds like a pretty good idea.
What is the easiest and/or cleanest way to empty pot #1 when you decide that the old wax is too contaminated?
What is the easiest and/or cleanest way to empty pot #1 when you decide that the old wax is too contaminated?
#82
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Hopefully, not that much wear! I measure the chain with a 3-prong tool (Pedro's Chain Checker Plus II | Jenson USA) every < 200 miles and it shows no measurable wear.
Gulf Wax is now cheap, but it was actually unavailable locally (and thus $$ on Amazon) during mid to late 2021 (likely due to COVID-related supply chain issues). And, as a chemist, you would appreciate a fellow (but junior, and sort of) chemist (i.e., me) developing a good waxing protocol in preparation for busting out the $$$ Silca wax. But after that, assuming no more supply issues, I would likely just do as you suggest (but not the mesh), because paraffin is much easier to acquire than OMS in SoCal.
Your chain cleaning is a special issue due to the ban of mineral spirits in your area. Water based degreasers just aren’t going to clean as well with as little volume as mineral spirits will. I’m not sure how to crack that nut short of smuggling mineral spirits over the border from Nevada or Arizona.
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#83
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It’s not that much wear. It’s that the particles are finely divided. Chop a small amount of material into very small bits and it looks like a lot of material. There is some material from the outside of the chain…just not as much as some would believe. Some of that material may even be magnetic since we humans have spread iron all over the world. Go drag a magnet through any random pile of dirt and you’ll collect all kinds of iron particles.
Frankly, I wouldn’t bust out the dollars for the Silca wax. Any improvements in paying roughly 6 times as much for wax is minimal at best. I also see little reason for any kind of cleaning that Silca, Zero Friction, and thousands of other cyclists seem to feel is absolutely “necessary”. The supposition is that wax doesn’t stick to the chain because of other lubricants on the chain. Considering that the wax is in the same family as the “grease” already on the chain, this is a silly supposition that is based on a lack of knowledge about materials.
Your chain cleaning is a special issue due to the ban of mineral spirits in your area. Water based degreasers just aren’t going to clean as well with as little volume as mineral spirits will. I’m not sure how to crack that nut short of smuggling mineral spirits over the border from Nevada or Arizona.
Frankly, I wouldn’t bust out the dollars for the Silca wax. Any improvements in paying roughly 6 times as much for wax is minimal at best. I also see little reason for any kind of cleaning that Silca, Zero Friction, and thousands of other cyclists seem to feel is absolutely “necessary”. The supposition is that wax doesn’t stick to the chain because of other lubricants on the chain. Considering that the wax is in the same family as the “grease” already on the chain, this is a silly supposition that is based on a lack of knowledge about materials.
Your chain cleaning is a special issue due to the ban of mineral spirits in your area. Water based degreasers just aren’t going to clean as well with as little volume as mineral spirits will. I’m not sure how to crack that nut short of smuggling mineral spirits over the border from Nevada or Arizona.
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#84
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No they aren't, nor did I suggest they were (although I will point out that you and I both hold advanced degrees and should know that "scientist" isn't a title, and published isn't a guarantee of accuracy or rigor - there's a reason you publish methods, results, and analysis before the conclusion). However, their procedures and analysis are published, rigorous, and up to date. We can evaluate the accuracy of their work by reviewing their methodology and data. Personally, I'm inclined to trust their measurements more than 20 year old infrared photography. I'm also inclined to think that given the levels of interest and study in bicycle technology over the past 20 years, it is entirely possible current studies could show differences that weren't expected in the past. Consider what we've learned in aerodynamics.
Second, publication in a scientific journal at least gives a reasonable expectation of accuracy and rigor.
Third, most of what we have learned about aerodynamics hasn’t occurred in the last 5 to 10 years. We know a lot about aerodynamics from studies done many years ago. You should know that science improves on previous results but doesn’t reject them outright just because the study is old.
The data disagrees
The Science Daily article says that the efficiency of the chain ranges from 81% to 98% and is dependent on the size of the sprockets. The Cycle About article says that the efficiency ranges from 92% to 97%. The results are a bit better than the Johns Hopkins Study but I don’t see anything in the Cycle About article that says they changed the sprocket size. Their losses are due to contamination. Neither article really addresses the “quality” of the chains used. Let’s assume at least similar quality. The Johns Hopkins study isn’t “invalid because it is old”. It gave similar results to the clean case of the Cycle About article.
The “data” shows that chain efficiency…and the friction involved…is not significantly impacted by lubrication even when there is no lubricant. Yes, there is a decrease in efficiency as shown in the speed/distance tests but the decrease is actually quite small. The Cycle About article wants to make the breathless claim that there is a 2.7% decrease in speed! But the real difference is around 0.8kph. Stop the presses! That is just an unacceptable result! It’s going to cost you what, 30 watts?
That may be important in a race but in real life, it’s hardly going to cause problems. Even in a race, that’s not going to be much of a consideration. Assuming that the racers are all competing in the same conditions, any losses due to contamination of the chain is going to have the same effect on each rider.
Overall, the Cycle About article (based on Friction Facts methods) confirms those ancient Johns Hopkins results. So what does the data say, again?
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#85
Senior Member
That may be your supposition, but it certainly isn't Silca's belief. Their rational for stripping the chain is so that the added particulate can properly interact with the rough metal surface.
#86
Just Pedaling
allan6344 The dual pot system sounds like a pretty good idea.
What is the easiest and/or cleanest way to empty pot #1 when you decide that the old wax is too contaminated?
What is the easiest and/or cleanest way to empty pot #1 when you decide that the old wax is too contaminated?
#87
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I haven’t seen anyone who actually has tested if the ultra cleaning methods actually do anything at all. The chain manufacturers…who know a bit more about the chains than Silca does…don’t suggest stripping the chain to a stupid level of cleanliness.
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#89
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It works the same for claiming that elaborate cleaning procedures are necessary. Have you evidence that they are? What is gained? What is lost by not doing an extra bunch of steps?
How about a cite or a link? I can find related to chain cleaning, Silca, and Purdue.
Silca has referred to exactly those tests (performed at Purdue, I believe).
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#91
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To clarify once again - your 20 year old technical paper is interesting. I did a fair amount of work using infrared sensors in grad school and in some post graduate work in the earl 90s. I did try to get a copy of the full article, but they seem intent on being paid $25 since I'm not currently teaching or enrolled in a university. C'est la velo.
But our understanding of chain efficiency did not stop with that study. No science was settled. Given your own work in chemistry, you know that our understanding is perpetually evolving, and this is certainly true in the realm of bicycle technology. I'm going to take seriously any study that has a sound design, published procedures and analysis, and makes the authors available for questions.
I fully expect that in another 20 years, we'll understand more than we do today about chain efficiency. In the meantime, there is no reason t disregard replicable studies that show differences in efficiency between chains and chain lubes. At that time, someone citing trade testing from the mid 2020s will rightfully seem a little quaint.
Have a great day.
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#92
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#93
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Frankly, I wouldn’t bust out the dollars for the Silca wax. Any improvements in paying roughly 6 times as much for wax is minimal at best. I also see little reason for any kind of cleaning that Silca, Zero Friction, and thousands of other cyclists seem to feel is absolutely “necessary”.
Your chain cleaning is a special issue due to the ban of mineral spirits in your area. Water based degreasers just aren’t going to clean as well with as little volume as mineral spirits will. I’m not sure how to crack that nut short of smuggling mineral spirits over the border from Nevada or Arizona.
#94
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To clarify once again - your 20 year old technical paper is interesting. I did a fair amount of work using infrared sensors in grad school and in some post graduate work in the earl 90s. I did try to get a copy of the full article, but they seem intent on being paid $25 since I'm not currently teaching or enrolled in a university. C'est la velo.
But our understanding of chain efficiency did not stop with that study. No science was settled. Given your own work in chemistry, you know that our understanding is perpetually evolving, and this is certainly true in the realm of bicycle technology. I'm going to take seriously any study that has a sound design, published procedures and analysis, and makes the authors available for questions.
I fully expect that in another 20 years, we'll understand more than we do today about chain efficiency. In the meantime, there is no reason t disregard replicable studies that show differences in efficiency between chains and chain lubes. At that time, someone citing trade testing from the mid 2020s will rightfully seem a little quaint.
Have a great day.
Have a great day.
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#95
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So show them. It shouldn’t be up to me to go wade through a bunch of podcasts that I know nothing about. You are the one making the claim, prove it.
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#96
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I know (barely?) enough organic chemistry to follow your discussions on this subject and recognize that Gulf wax and Shimano factory "grease" are (to a large extent) cross-soluble. It is just that, prior to my acquisition of OMS, a waxed chain retained sufficient Shimano factory "grease" to be sticky to the touch and to external debris even after a short ride.
I bought my first liter of OMS from an art supply chain retailer; it was intended for people to clean their oil paint brushes. I have now used that up. Subsequently, I was able to buy two more quarts from Lowes: (1) a regular version (must be a glitch in Lowe's supply chain), which seems to work, and (2) a California-specific version, which I have not opened; it remains to be seen whether that works as well as regular OMS. (They have different MSDS.)
If your “California-specific” mineral spirits is the “green” version, that’s a surfactant in water with mineral spirits and is basically worse than just about any water soluble degreaser.
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I have tried to find any mention of Purdue and Silca with regard to chain cleaning and found absolutely nothing. Makes me think you are misremembering something that you heard somewhere. You said it has been discussed in “several” podcasts. Should be easy to find to prove your point.
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I can’t find a list of solvents that aren’t allowed in California so I’m not sure what other solvents you have available. Acetone, MEK, and denatured alcohol are not good choices as they are too polar to work on chain lubricants. You might try Klean-Strip Painter’s Solvent that seems to be available in San Diego. It’s a mixture of acetone, methyl acetate, and mineral spirits.
They also seem to carry xylene. Both of these mixtures have a higher hazard level than straight mineral spirits in terms of flammability and toxicity. Use gloves, of course, but change the gloves often since both of these solvents are marginally incompatible with nitrile gloves.
The regulations must have changed again in 2024. Even the green, "slow-to-dissolve" version is no longer available in Orange County or San Diego. So I have ordered another liter of pure OMS from the art supply store.
Last edited by SoSmellyAir; 01-14-24 at 08:15 PM.
#100
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Orange county is regulated by both the state as well as South Coast Air Quality Management District, which does not apply to San Diego, which I visit almost every month (between firm HQ and friends). The MSDS for what you linked has > 80% acetone, > 10% methyl acetate, and < 5% OMS. I have used pure acetone before, which was practically useless against Shimano factory grease, so I am not sure how much better this would work.
By the way, the beauty of the system I invented was that by the addition of a bit of water, I could phase separate the mixture and the lignin…which is water insoluble…would go with the ketone, cleanly separating the lignin from the sugars that come out of the pulping. The lignin was mostly free of sugar which make downstream processing and use of the lignin much easier. I’m not suggesting you do a phase separation with this solvent, however.
The painter’s solvent is cheap enough that it would be worth trying. If it works, great! If it doesn’t work, well, you haven’t lost much.
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