Correlation between maximum leg strength and smooth pedaling
#76
Senior Member
An anecdote I'm prone to dropping whenever the "but weight on the wheel!" discussions arise:
Back in my time-trialing days, I bought a pair of absurdly light and fragile Hi-E wheels, when they were probably the lightest wheels on the market. I used them for a few rides and then sold them, solely because I disliked that I could feel the lack of a flywheel effect. Riding on them felt like a series of pulsing micro-accelerations.
Writing that now, I suspect that my memory of the way the wheels rode might have become a bit overblown over the years. Still, I did sell them, and I rarely sell anything, as my cluttered basement demonstrates.
In any event, I went back to my reassuringly steady-state Campy/Mavic GP4 wheels.
Back in my time-trialing days, I bought a pair of absurdly light and fragile Hi-E wheels, when they were probably the lightest wheels on the market. I used them for a few rides and then sold them, solely because I disliked that I could feel the lack of a flywheel effect. Riding on them felt like a series of pulsing micro-accelerations.
Writing that now, I suspect that my memory of the way the wheels rode might have become a bit overblown over the years. Still, I did sell them, and I rarely sell anything, as my cluttered basement demonstrates.
In any event, I went back to my reassuringly steady-state Campy/Mavic GP4 wheels.
Last edited by Trakhak; 01-26-24 at 06:22 PM.
#77
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An anecdote I'm prone to dropping whenever the "but weight on the wheel!" discussions arise:
Back in my time-trialing days, I bought a pair of absurdly light and fragile Hi-E wheels, when they were probably the lightest wheels on the market. I used them for a few rides and then sold them, solely because I disliked that I could feel the lack of a flywheel effect. Riding on them felt like a series of pulsing micro-accelerations.
Writing that now, I suspect that my memory of the way the wheels rode might have become a bit overblown over the years. Still, I did sell them, and I rarely sell anything, as my cluttered basement demonstrates.
In any event, I went back to my reassuringly steady-state Campy/Mavic GP4 wheels.
Back in my time-trialing days, I bought a pair of absurdly light and fragile Hi-E wheels, when they were probably the lightest wheels on the market. I used them for a few rides and then sold them, solely because I disliked that I could feel the lack of a flywheel effect. Riding on them felt like a series of pulsing micro-accelerations.
Writing that now, I suspect that my memory of the way the wheels rode might have become a bit overblown over the years. Still, I did sell them, and I rarely sell anything, as my cluttered basement demonstrates.
In any event, I went back to my reassuringly steady-state Campy/Mavic GP4 wheels.
#78
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If you are talking about micro acceleration and deceleration within each pedal stroke then the physics tells us that it simply cancels out in terms of energy consumption. Heavier wheels actually damp out these slight speed fluctuations anyway. Not to mention that the accelerations are of tiny (insignificant) magnitude. Even a full bore sprint acceleration requires very little additional power to spin up heavier wheels. It’s very easy to calculate. I made a quick spreadsheet last time this was argued.
This is not the same thing as a rider constantly attacking on a climb and then sitting up. Of course that is inefficient in terms of our energy systems.
This is not the same thing as a rider constantly attacking on a climb and then sitting up. Of course that is inefficient in terms of our energy systems.
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#79
Perceptual Dullard
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We burn fat and carbs, cars burn gas or Diesel, it's the same thing, but we only have numbers for cars. It's just physics.
Pros actually climb very smoothly. Again, look it up. That's the reason the wheel weight didn't make a difference other than as being a part of the bike.
Pros actually climb very smoothly. Again, look it up. That's the reason the wheel weight didn't make a difference other than as being a part of the bike.
Humans and cars are both thermodynamic engines, but they are quite different.
Accelerating a car is energy inefficient because acceleration a heavy car requires substantial power, and internal combustion engines are not very efficient at higher power levels.
Human engines don't suffer quite the same inefficiency problem at higher power output, so accelerating on a bike is (more) efficient.
Last edited by terrymorse; 01-27-24 at 01:27 PM.
#81
How do you figure the bolded part? Like if I rapidly diddled my car's accelerator but that didn't change the car's speed, that would not affect fuel consumption? I don't think so. I think that's a valid comparison, though I expect we will disagree on that point. Can you show me the physics of that? Micro accelerations are still accelerations even if they don't affect the numbers on our devices. I know, the effect is very small, but it's there and small things add up over the hours. Randonneurs complain about beginning to "pedal squares" when very tired. It can be hard to maintain one's efficient pedal stroke. It helps a lot if one has trained those ganglia. That's never happened to me, which might help to explain
the good results of a weak cyclist like me.
the good results of a weak cyclist like me.
Pedalling “squares” vs pedalling “circles” can mean whatever you want it to mean, but again has no relevance to the physics here.
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That’s a good formulation. The problem for the general public and a distressingly large number of professionals is the inability to distinguish between reliable data, unreliable data, and sheer opinion. Sounds like your students have mastered that part.
#83
Perceptual Dullard
Another thing I tell the students is that there are those whose confidence in their opinions varies not with how much they know, but with how much they think you know. Basically, I tell them not be mansplainers.
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#84
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I don't know if that's true or not. I've never seen a rec for 1RM training per se. Many people check their 1RM and use a percentage. I don't even do that. I just go to exhaustion and choose my next week's weight on that basis. Why would I need to know my 1RM? Silly, IMO. Risk of injury. OTOH, I don't know anyone who does what I do. Maybe they're out there? Hard to know. So far, everyone I know who's tried it said "I can't do that." My oddity is that no, I couldn't do it either, but I kept trying. I remember when I started serious rock climbing. I spent a month just getting off the ground on a new pitch. Nothing wrong with that, other than perhaps being a little obsessive. OTOH, my FastPedal routine was recommended to me by Ed Burke. I suspect he's out of fashion now. My one-legged pedaling routines were sent to me by Pete Penseyres many years ago. I knew he had done that and asked for his recommendation.
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Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 01-27-24 at 01:31 PM. Reason: Realized I'd left out Pete's contribution.
#85
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I work in a field where we don't usually get to do experiments. We work with crappy observational data so have evolved a lot of methods and techniques to assess and work with crap data. That's why the statistical techniques used in non-experimental fields are so much more sophisticated than the stat used in experimental fields. In physics or chem or engineering, when they get crappy data they just re-run the experiment. We don't have that luxury. (As an aside, my approach to measuring bike drag uses data that everyone else thought were too crappy to use. I just used the methods we use for crap data and because the data from speedometers and power meters and barometers is so much cleaner than the stuff I'm used to working with, the results turned out pretty well).
Another thing I tell the students is that there are those whose confidence in their opinions varies not with how much they know, but with how much they think you know. Basically, I tell them not be mansplainers.
Another thing I tell the students is that there are those whose confidence in their opinions varies not with how much they know, but with how much they think you know. Basically, I tell them not be mansplainers.
Yes, the worse the data, the better the stats.
In the better neighborhoods of the clinical and human subjects world, we don’t let people rerun experiments unless they put that in the protocol and it’s approved before they start and then we may make them halve their alpha. Animal research is still the Wild West.
The Dunning-Kruger effect is always with us.
Last edited by MoAlpha; 01-27-24 at 01:31 PM.
#86
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No, I don't have any data because no power pedals. I'm not going to spend $1000 on something that won't improve my cycling just to post stuff. My only data are my finish times and placings, which in my view are what matters. Everything else is evidently arguable.
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#87
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Thank goodness, no. (Although I studied Econ and have a grad degree in it). I just retired ("just" as in, Dec. 31) from one of the few PhD-granting Demography departments in the world.
Yeah, I split my time between UC Berkeley and UCSF, but I've never done RCTs. I worked with observational data, mostly administrative but some clinical, typically with tens of thousands or tens of millions of cases, to assess quality of care. Demographers know a lot about large datasets, how to look for data anomalies, and how to standardize to level the playing field. I've been yelled at by some pretty (in)famous physicians.
Yes, the worse the data, the better the stats.
In the better neighborhoods of the clinical and human subjects world, we don’t let people rerun experiments unless they put that in the protocol and it’s approved before they start and then we may make them halve their alpha. Animal research is still the Wild West.
In the better neighborhoods of the clinical and human subjects world, we don’t let people rerun experiments unless they put that in the protocol and it’s approved before they start and then we may make them halve their alpha. Animal research is still the Wild West.
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#88
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Your observations are fine data as far as I’m concerned. I was referring to data from well designed experiments we could use to answer the question of what is likely to help most people.
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Thank goodness, no. (Although I studied Econ and have a grad degree in it). I just retired ("just" as in, Dec. 31) from one of the few PhD-granting Demography departments in the world.
Yeah, I split my time between UC Berkeley and UCSF, but I've never done RCTs. I worked with observational data, mostly administrative but some clinical, typically with tens of thousands or tens of millions of cases, to assess quality of care. Demographers know a lot about large datasets, how to look for data anomalies, and how to standardize to level the playing field. I've been yelled at by some pretty (in)famous physicians.
Yeah, I split my time between UC Berkeley and UCSF, but I've never done RCTs. I worked with observational data, mostly administrative but some clinical, typically with tens of thousands or tens of millions of cases, to assess quality of care. Demographers know a lot about large datasets, how to look for data anomalies, and how to standardize to level the playing field. I've been yelled at by some pretty (in)famous physicians.
Have you been yelled at by Ioannidis? I feel as though he has been yelling at me for the last 20 years even though I’ve never met him!
I am actually a cognitive neuroscience guy with a background in neurophysiology, but I have been involved in many trials over the years and I chair the scientific review committee at my NIH institute, where we clean up human subjects protocols before they go the IRB. I have gotten pretty savvy and hardass about design and analysis, at least for a doc.
#90
Perceptual Dullard
I am actually a cognitive neuroscience guy with a background in neurophysiology, but I have been involved in many trials over the years and I chair the scientific review committee at my NIH institute, where we clean up human subjects protocols before they go the IRB. I have gotten pretty savvy and hardass about design and analysis, at least for a doc.
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#91
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At least there's another person somewhere . . .
https://ispyphysiology.com/2023/07/1...nstead-of-two/
I finally had a successful FastPedal this evening. I haven't been warming up enough. Gotta do more to open up those arteries before I do anything interesting, lots more than only two years ago. Must be age. It's "interesting" that there's so little knowledge about coping as an aging athlete. Anyone? My current plan is to do a lot of FastPedal until I can spin the pedals fast with a lot less HR, Z2 training with an easily seen marker. I've been good about going to the gym, so decent muscle but not anything like enough cardio. I'll go back to doing the LSCT warmup: https://www.highnorth.co.uk/articles...l-cycling-test
I didn't think I needed that for doing a FastPedal, but I think now I have to.
Also found another crazy person: https://ispyphysiology.com/2023/07/1...nstead-of-two/
https://ispyphysiology.com/2023/07/1...nstead-of-two/
I finally had a successful FastPedal this evening. I haven't been warming up enough. Gotta do more to open up those arteries before I do anything interesting, lots more than only two years ago. Must be age. It's "interesting" that there's so little knowledge about coping as an aging athlete. Anyone? My current plan is to do a lot of FastPedal until I can spin the pedals fast with a lot less HR, Z2 training with an easily seen marker. I've been good about going to the gym, so decent muscle but not anything like enough cardio. I'll go back to doing the LSCT warmup: https://www.highnorth.co.uk/articles...l-cycling-test
I didn't think I needed that for doing a FastPedal, but I think now I have to.
Also found another crazy person: https://ispyphysiology.com/2023/07/1...nstead-of-two/
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Last edited by Carbonfiberboy; 01-27-24 at 09:08 PM.