Maillard 700 cones....
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
Maillard 700 cones....
I’ve got a set of wheels with Maillard 700 hi-flange hubs I’d really like to use. The front hub is complete, however the rear is missing it’s axle/cones/nuts and one of the black plastic dust caps. I’ve got a friend with a 3D printer who can make me a dust cap based on the one I have. Axle & nuts are no problem, but the cones…… From what I can gather, there is often some wiggle room with cone shape/radius, but having messed around with trying to resuscitate some Normandy Luxe Comp hubs with their super shallow radius cones (the cones were badly pitted and I gave up on trying to get alternatives to work), and lacking the originals for the 700s to reference I’m wondering if I’ll have the same problem. Did Maillard 700 cones have an unusual radius? I want to use these wheels on a ‘townie’ build I’m doing with a basket-case PX-10, so it’s not likely to see thousands and thousands of miles. But still, I’d like the hubs to work…
Last edited by ehcoplex; 02-17-24 at 08:38 AM. Reason: grammar
#2
WGB
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Niagara Region
Posts: 2,976
Bikes: Panasonic PT-4500
Liked 2,391 Times
in
1,408 Posts
interested in this as well
#3
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Liked 2,011 Times
in
1,192 Posts
I'm going to climb out on a limb with a chain saw, and say I doubt that the manufacturer was changed for the cones, axles and nuts throughout the product line were different from year to year. And if that is the case a Helicomatic hub can likely be scavenged for replacement parts. Too bad I didn't know this before I sent out your BOC, or I could have fit a hub in there for you. I can send you one if you want to try the parts in your hub, and if so you can report back to all if the parts interchange. Smiles, MH
Likes For Mad Honk:
#4
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
I'm going to climb out on a limb with a chain saw, and say I doubt that the manufacturer was changed for the cones, axles and nuts throughout the product line were different from year to year. And if that is the case a Helicomatic hub can likely be scavenged for replacement parts. Too bad I didn't know this before I sent out your BOC, or I could have fit a hub in there for you. I can send you one if you want to try the parts in your hub, and if so you can report back to all if the parts interchange. Smiles, MH
Likes For ehcoplex:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 646
Bikes: 68 SS, 72 Fuji Finest, 72 PX-10, 77 Pana Pro 7000, 84 Pinnarello Treviso NR, 84 Trek 520, 88 Project KOM, 90 Trek 750, 91 Trek 930
Liked 215 Times
in
150 Posts
I believe Helicomatic used smaller balls so no
__________________
Last new bike 1991
Last new bike 1991
#6
My experience with vintage French hubs is bad, in that the cones are made of soft material and pit a lot faster than Campy hubs, even the lesser Campy hubs such as Tipo and Victory/Triomphe.
Check your hub for the size and number of balls. Campy hubs in the freewheel era mostly took 10 x 3/16" balls in the front, and 9 x 1/4" balls in the back. Ditto with Shimano and Suntour. If your hubs follow the same spec, then there is a strong chance you can retrofit your hubs with a complete axle/cone/ball assembly from one of these manufacturers - a definite upgrade from mid-range French hardware.
Check your hub for the size and number of balls. Campy hubs in the freewheel era mostly took 10 x 3/16" balls in the front, and 9 x 1/4" balls in the back. Ditto with Shimano and Suntour. If your hubs follow the same spec, then there is a strong chance you can retrofit your hubs with a complete axle/cone/ball assembly from one of these manufacturers - a definite upgrade from mid-range French hardware.
Likes For Dave Mayer:
#7
Senior Member
-----
the actual manufacturer of the hub is Etablissements Perrin et Courson, best known as producers of Pelissier, New Star & Exceltoo marked products
[advert of July 1973, the launch year]
since you have the generation with the black plastic dustcaps that makes it the G1/early version
there is also a G2/late edition
do not know if cones the same for both; my experience limited to the G1
two places where would expect discussion of these hubs to have taken place is the GitaneUSA forum and the CR list
forum member verktyg has made very detailed posts concerning cones for the various generations of the Luxe Competition hub but have not seen him to write on the 700; he may have done so on the Gitane forum &/or the CR list
one thing to be aware of regarding the design of the 700 is that the bearing cups have larger holes for the axle than do the barrels; the seat for the cups is square is cross section such that when installed the cups have no open space on their back side to knock them out with a drift punch should replacement be required
-----
the actual manufacturer of the hub is Etablissements Perrin et Courson, best known as producers of Pelissier, New Star & Exceltoo marked products
[advert of July 1973, the launch year]
since you have the generation with the black plastic dustcaps that makes it the G1/early version
there is also a G2/late edition
do not know if cones the same for both; my experience limited to the G1
two places where would expect discussion of these hubs to have taken place is the GitaneUSA forum and the CR list
forum member verktyg has made very detailed posts concerning cones for the various generations of the Luxe Competition hub but have not seen him to write on the 700; he may have done so on the Gitane forum &/or the CR list
one thing to be aware of regarding the design of the 700 is that the bearing cups have larger holes for the axle than do the barrels; the seat for the cups is square is cross section such that when installed the cups have no open space on their back side to knock them out with a drift punch should replacement be required
-----
Likes For juvela:
#8
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
Alrighty... I pulled apart a Campy small-flange Gran Sport hub and tried the axle/cones/etc in the 700 shell and.. success. Spins smooth, no weirdness, etc. AFAIK, the cones on Campy GS hubs are the same as Record. Now I'm wondering if Campy cones changed much over the years, or if I can just get any Campy rear cones....
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2017
Location: NJ
Posts: 646
Bikes: 68 SS, 72 Fuji Finest, 72 PX-10, 77 Pana Pro 7000, 84 Pinnarello Treviso NR, 84 Trek 520, 88 Project KOM, 90 Trek 750, 91 Trek 930
Liked 215 Times
in
150 Posts
IF Helicomatic then from Sutherland's at https://archive.org/details/sutherla...with-bookmarks
REAR HUBS – MULTI-SPEED FREEWHEEL
Ball Sizes
- 1/4" balk per side except the following:
ACS Pre-1983 9 - 15/64" balls per side
ACS 1983-current 9 - 1/4" balls per side
Maillard Helicomatic 1 3 - 5/32" balls per side
Schwinn Disc Brake 12 - 3/16" balls per side
Suntour Cassette Hubs 12 - 3/16" balls per side
Suntour XCD 1989 9 - 1/4" balls left side, 12 - 3/16" balk right side
REAR HUBS – MULTI-SPEED FREEWHEEL
Ball Sizes
- 1/4" balk per side except the following:
ACS Pre-1983 9 - 15/64" balls per side
ACS 1983-current 9 - 1/4" balls per side
Maillard Helicomatic 1 3 - 5/32" balls per side
Schwinn Disc Brake 12 - 3/16" balls per side
Suntour Cassette Hubs 12 - 3/16" balls per side
Suntour XCD 1989 9 - 1/4" balls left side, 12 - 3/16" balk right side
__________________
Last new bike 1991
Last new bike 1991
Last edited by dmark; 02-18-24 at 08:14 AM.
#10
Senior Member
Alrighty... I pulled apart a Campy small-flange Gran Sport hub and tried the axle/cones/etc in the 700 shell and.. success. Spins smooth, no weirdness, etc. AFAIK, the cones on Campy GS hubs are the same as Record. Now I'm wondering if Campy cones changed much over the years, or if I can just get any Campy rear cones....
slightly surprised to read this
at its initial launch the GS group employed Nuovo Tipo hubs
these have cones which are less precisely rectified than those of Record model hubs and they are not black oxide finished as the Record model ones are; they have a satin silver finish
-----
#11
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
-----
slightly surprised to read this
at its initial launch the GS group employed Nuovo Tipo hubs
these have cones which are less precisely rectified than those of Record model hubs and they are not black oxide finished as the Record model ones are; they have a satin silver finish
-----
slightly surprised to read this
at its initial launch the GS group employed Nuovo Tipo hubs
these have cones which are less precisely rectified than those of Record model hubs and they are not black oxide finished as the Record model ones are; they have a satin silver finish
-----
#12
Senior Member
I've had to replace cones on Maillard hubs and found it relatively inexpensive to just buy another hub off Ebay. I've been lucky that the replacement hub had good cones, but it's risky.
__________________
My collection: 1947 Ciclo Piave, 1955 Liberia, 1969 Colnago Super, 1972 Legnano Olimpiade Record Specialissima, 1980 Mercian Vincitore, 1983 Gitane Interclub, 1985 Peugeot PGN10, 1986 Bianchi Vittoria, 1987 De Rosa Professional, 1989 Vitus 979, 1990 Bianchi Axis, 1990 Specialized Sirrus, 2001 Colnago Dream B-Stay, 2007 Trek 1000
My collection: 1947 Ciclo Piave, 1955 Liberia, 1969 Colnago Super, 1972 Legnano Olimpiade Record Specialissima, 1980 Mercian Vincitore, 1983 Gitane Interclub, 1985 Peugeot PGN10, 1986 Bianchi Vittoria, 1987 De Rosa Professional, 1989 Vitus 979, 1990 Bianchi Axis, 1990 Specialized Sirrus, 2001 Colnago Dream B-Stay, 2007 Trek 1000
Likes For Brad L:
#13
Senior Member
Not attempting to derail the thread, but thought to add an observation. Through the years and having Helicomatic early vs later hubs, there's a difference in the bb's sizes. It's been awhile and I don't have the details off hand.
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Liked 2,011 Times
in
1,192 Posts
Well a bit of scrounging around yields up these front hubs and perhaps a rear cone from an old French hub.
Plenty of front hubs available.
This is from a standard French rear hub that is being scrapped. Cone size is 17.5mm outer diameter, 12.5mm inner race diameter, and 12mm in height.
There are likely some innards from a Tippo hub here in the Way Back archives. Smiles, MH
Plenty of front hubs available.
This is from a standard French rear hub that is being scrapped. Cone size is 17.5mm outer diameter, 12.5mm inner race diameter, and 12mm in height.
There are likely some innards from a Tippo hub here in the Way Back archives. Smiles, MH
#15
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
Well a bit of scrounging around yields up these front hubs and perhaps a rear cone from an old French hub.
Plenty of front hubs available.
This is from a standard French rear hub that is being scrapped. Cone size is 17.5mm outer diameter, 12.5mm inner race diameter, and 12mm in height.
There are likely some innards from a Tippo hub here in the Way Back archives. Smiles, MH
Plenty of front hubs available.
This is from a standard French rear hub that is being scrapped. Cone size is 17.5mm outer diameter, 12.5mm inner race diameter, and 12mm in height.
There are likely some innards from a Tippo hub here in the Way Back archives. Smiles, MH
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Liked 2,011 Times
in
1,192 Posts
ehcoplex ,
Well open up yer wallet and let me rummage around in there!
No spokes were injured or damaged in the making of this sacrifice.
This is the part where your cash is going to start flowing freely in my direction!
Har! Smiles, MH
Well open up yer wallet and let me rummage around in there!
No spokes were injured or damaged in the making of this sacrifice.
This is the part where your cash is going to start flowing freely in my direction!
Har! Smiles, MH
#17
Old fart
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Appleton WI
Posts: 24,876
Bikes: Several, mostly not name brands.
Liked 3,482 Times
in
1,975 Posts
#18
Ride, Wrench, Swap, Race
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Northern California
Posts: 9,257
Bikes: Cheltenham-Pedersen racer, Boulder F/S Paris-Roubaix, Varsity racer, '52 Christophe, '62 Continental, '92 Merckx, '75 Limongi, '76 Presto, '72 Gitane SC, '71 Schwinn SS, etc.
Liked 1,342 Times
in
892 Posts
I believe there are other high-end hubs using the .75-pitch threading made by Maillard, not just Helicomatic!
And Roval hubs had that threading too, the hubs being made by Maillard.
I do recall tearing into at least one of Maillard's high-end hubs with the 10x.75 axle, must have been a 700 or perhaps Trophee, but a top model hi-flange hub.
The finer threading makes for a stronger axle and reduces any tendency for threaded parts to loosen.
And Roval hubs had that threading too, the hubs being made by Maillard.
I do recall tearing into at least one of Maillard's high-end hubs with the 10x.75 axle, must have been a 700 or perhaps Trophee, but a top model hi-flange hub.
The finer threading makes for a stronger axle and reduces any tendency for threaded parts to loosen.
#20
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
Well, I cannabalized a Shimano hub in the B-O-C Mad Honk sent me and I think it's going to work. I don't doubt there's probably some slight mismatch with the radius of the cones and the cups, but it feels good and smooth. Now to see if 3D printing the missing dust caps works...
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Liked 2,011 Times
in
1,192 Posts
You gonna tell me that the Shimano dust cap didn't fit into the Maillard hub shell! What were those guys thinking by not standardizing parts for interchangeable option. Har! MH
Likes For Mad Honk:
#22
aka Tom Reingold
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: New York, NY, and High Falls, NY, USA
Posts: 40,686
Bikes: 1962 Rudge Sports, 1971 Raleigh Super Course, 1971 Raleigh Pro Track, 1974 Raleigh International, 1975 Viscount Fixie, 1982 McLean, 1996 Lemond (Ti), 2002 Burley Zydeco tandem
Liked 2,642 Times
in
1,534 Posts
Campagnolo Nuovo Tip (which means "new type") hubs had good cones but stamped races. But the hubs were pretty durable overall.
__________________
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
Tom Reingold, tom@noglider.com
New York City and High Falls, NY
Blogs: The Experienced Cyclist; noglider's ride blog
“When man invented the bicycle he reached the peak of his attainments.” — Elizabeth West, US author
Please email me rather than PM'ing me. Thanks.
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Liked 2,011 Times
in
1,192 Posts
So it seems my sending copious amounts of "Crap" to ehcoplex has resulted in another lost sale of Campy goodness! Now he needs to step up and show us pictures of his "Hack" for the repair, and give all of the gory details of the transplant. Smiles, MH
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 3,036
Bikes: Paramount, Faggin, Ochsner, Ciocc, Basso
Liked 2,011 Times
in
1,192 Posts
Well I started cleaning the two front hubs today that were pulled out of the 27" rims. The 700 foil ink washed right off the hubs! Luckily Greg at Cyclomondo makes replacement foils. So I am ordering from Australia to restore the hub. I guess this a PSA to be very careful when cleaning the hubs. Smiles, MH
#25
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2021
Posts: 1,723
Bikes: '38 Schwinn New World, ’69 Peugeot PX-10, '72 Peugeot PX-10, ‘7? Valgan, '78 Raleigh Comp GS, ’79 Holdsworth Pro, ’80 Peugeot TH-8 tandem, '87 Trek 400T, ‘7? Raleigh Sports, ‘7? Raleigh Superbe, ‘6? Hercules
Liked 1,643 Times
in
783 Posts
Well I started cleaning the two front hubs today that were pulled out of the 27" rims. The 700 foil ink washed right off the hubs! Luckily Greg at Cyclomondo makes replacement foils. So I am ordering from Australia to restore the hub. I guess this a PSA to be very careful when cleaning the hubs. Smiles, MH