Does the bike really make a difference?
#101
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Those "ifs" are doing some pretty heavy lifting.
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#102
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That works if your errors are random. That doesn't work if the errors are systematic.
If it were that hard, I wouldn't've been able to do it. But, in general, the smaller the difference you're trying to discern, the more careful you have to be. If you're looking for the difference between, say, a loose jersey and a tight one, you don't need to be that careful at all. That's a pretty noticeable difference.
If it were that hard, I wouldn't've been able to do it. But, in general, the smaller the difference you're trying to discern, the more careful you have to be. If you're looking for the difference between, say, a loose jersey and a tight one, you don't need to be that careful at all. That's a pretty noticeable difference.
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#103
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In the one example of the GP5000, yes. Comparing Vittoria Corsa Speed G+ 2.0 tubeless to the Cosra Speed tubular (the fastest non-tubeless Vittoria on BRR), the 25mm tubeless @ 80psi is faster than the 23mm tubular @ 110psi. If we extrapolate the GP data of ~2W savings for latex vs. butyl, none of the Vittoria clinchers are in the fight,
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#104
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Yes, obviously, a GP 5000 clincher vs a GP 5000 TR (tubeless ready). It wouldn't be very useful to compare a tubeless tire to itself with a tube in it, now would it? People who have bought into the tubeless trend aren't going to be inclined to put an icky old tube in there.
My assertion stands: a clincher tire with a latex tube can be as efficient, or more efficient, as a similar tubeless version of that tire.
My assertion stands: a clincher tire with a latex tube can be as efficient, or more efficient, as a similar tubeless version of that tire.
There actually are some anti-sealant people out there who put in TPU or latex in because they don't want to fuss with sealant. BRR has consistently shown there is a RR penalty for doing this:
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...-tubes#results
https://www.bicyclerollingresistance...-tubes#average
Also, some pros and copycat amateurs are now using tubeless TT tires in the front or even rear because they are the fastest tires on the market despite being paper-thin, because with sealant inside there isn't as much of a concern about puncturing. Using a tube instead simply wouldn't be wise or result in the same speed -- 0 kph is as slow as it gets when one is pulled over to fix a flat.
From a 2023 Escape Collective article: "many Conti-equipped teams have been using the TT TR since the start of this season for its lower rolling resistance and weight."
#105
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In the one example of the GP5000, yes. Comparing Vittoria Corsa Speed G+ 2.0 tubeless to the Cosra Speed tubular (the fastest non-tubeless Vittoria on BRR), the 25mm tubeless @ 80psi is faster than the 23mm tubular @ 110psi. If we extrapolate the GP data of ~2W savings for latex vs. butyl, none of the Vittoria clinchers are in the fight,
#106
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Seems like searching for a difference, when a meaningful difference isn't there.
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The meaningful difference is in flat protection. Tubeless wins that contest by a country mile, which is why I prefer them. Not having to deal with flats at the roadside makes the slight inconvenience of sealant worthwhile. YMMV.
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Is there really a material difference in internal volume between the clincher and TR? Data from BRR: at 100 psi on a 17.8 mm internal width rim, the two tires are rather similar in measured width, height, and tire thickness.
Seems like searching for a difference, when a meaningful difference isn't there.
Seems like searching for a difference, when a meaningful difference isn't there.
Seems like trying to ignore any evidence that disproves your assertion because it doesn't fit with your narrative.
#109
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Where has that been shown? I know it has been established for decades that wider tires of the same construction have lower RR at the same pressure, explained simply by the reduced vertical deflection. Not so sure that the same can be said about tire volume.
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CRR is affected by contact patch. The larger volume tire at same pressure has a larger contact patch.
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Yeah, I don't think you'll find a clincher that compares favorably to the Vittoria Cross Speed G+. That's a specialized tire that's super thin, suitable for events on good pavement and little else. BRR reports its tread thickness is just 1.8mm -- compare that to the GP5000 TL at 2.8mm, or the Vittoria Corsa G+ 2.0 (open) at 2.6mm.
Tubeless is still a winner for me simply due to how they handle most simple punctures. So far, the only issues I've had on the road have been sidewall slash issues that would likely have been the same result with a tubed tire.
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Wouldn't the area of the contact patch be the same, and just vary in width and length depending on tire size?
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OK, I messed that up, I should have written that the higher volume tire should have a wider contact patch, not larger. BRR's measured casing width of the GP 5K is also 2mm wider than than the S TR.
This all assumes that the tire construction is the same between the two models, as that also affects the contact patch shape. That seems highly unlikely, which is another reason why comparing two different tire models to try to prove that tubed tires are just as fast as tubeless is meaningless.
This all assumes that the tire construction is the same between the two models, as that also affects the contact patch shape. That seems highly unlikely, which is another reason why comparing two different tire models to try to prove that tubed tires are just as fast as tubeless is meaningless.
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This all assumes that the tire construction is the same between the two models, as that also affects the contact patch shape. That seems highly unlikely, which is another reason why comparing two different tire models to try to prove that tubed tires are just as fast as tubeless is meaningless.
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I was being rhetorical. If all we care about is what's faster, why compare the 5k to the S TR? Already shown that BRR measures higher RR with tubes in a tubeless tire. If you agree that the S TR is built differently than the tubed 5k, why is showing the 5k having lower RR than the S TR any proof that tubed tires are faster as tubeless?
#118
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This all assumes that the tire construction is the same between the two models, as that also affects the contact patch shape. That seems highly unlikely, which is another reason why comparing two different tire models to try to prove that tubed tires are just as fast as tubeless is meaningless.
I'll continue pushing back against the "common wisdom" that tubeless is faster, because it often is not.
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I see that, 66 mm vs 64 mm, an increase of 3% of the tire cross section circumference, or about a 6% of the tire volume.
Meaningless to whom? I'll continue to use my clincher + tube setup, safe in the knowledge that my tubed tire setup is fast. The only thing that truly matters is results.
I'll continue pushing back against the "common wisdom" that tubeless is faster, because it often is not.
Meaningless to whom? I'll continue to use my clincher + tube setup, safe in the knowledge that my tubed tire setup is fast. The only thing that truly matters is results.
I'll continue pushing back against the "common wisdom" that tubeless is faster, because it often is not.
EDIT: Since this ^^^ post, I found out that BRR's test drum is not smooth, as I had assumed. It's made from diamond plate in an attempt to approximate the imperfect conditions of real roads.
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Last edited by Eric F; 03-14-24 at 09:53 AM.
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Weight in numbers is an easy thing to fixate on since anyone can weigh their bikes, parts and themselves. Wind resistance is difficult to translate into relatable terms, or to see tangible benefits. There's power meters/metrics for the riders relative strength, but there's no on the bike real time wind resistance meters that tells the riders what a drag their frame, clothing or positioning is.
In a similar way, when "stiffness" became a thing, manufacturers would claim that This Year's Model was ".000667 percent stiffer laterally, for better power transfer, and .008834 percent more compliant vertically for a more comfortable ride."
Now that aero has been shown to trump all else, every frame is ridiculously stiff, and since wider, softer tires and both faster and more comfortable, a lot of people don't mind buying stiff frames.
This also. "Marginal gains" only really matter at all if a rider thinks they do. .000673 percent more aero means zero to me, and the days when shaving every gram was affordable have passed for me. I can just ride my bikes and i don't care.
#121
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(That said, measuring Crr is one of those things where you need to be careful with the measurements).
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#122
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When you can measure a difference repeatedly over a consistent course I'd say you have a data point as an amatuer. Pros don't seem to care a ton about a half-pound here or there or many of the other things we duffers obsess over. For a group ride it's a lot more about your personal capability and where you are in the pack.
#123
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Light weight high priced bikes are of a concern to those that race. For the rest of us a fairly good quality bike will serve us just fine.
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Sometimes bland mediocrity is not quite enough, especially when it comes to our main hobbies and interests. There are thousands of riders out there who don’t race, but still enjoy riding high quality race bikes. It has nothing to do with what they “need”.
Last edited by PeteHski; 03-14-24 at 05:52 AM.
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