Wooden rims?
05-16-24, 07:22 AM
#1
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Wooden rims?
What do you think about wheels with wooden rims?
there are two types:
considering only the second type (clincher)
There are two things that worry me
(cannot be used with aireless-tires)
there are two types:
- tubulars, to be glued with specific adhesive tape, the profile of the rim
- clincher
considering only the second type (clincher)
There are two things that worry me
- they cannot be inflated to more than 5 BAR
- they are "straight-side (SS) rims", so ... you need clinchers with a high and rigid bead because the wooden rim does not have hooks to fix the clincher like in aluminum rims
(cannot be used with aireless-tires)
Last edited by DiTBho; 05-16-24 at 07:28 AM.
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05-16-24, 08:08 AM
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Wood (done right) makes an excellent rim material. The reason it fell out of favor was rim brakes. That said, someone is going to have to get creative to make good flanges for clincher and tubeless. (Think wood/epoxy laminates like those used in most exotic pre-carbon fiber racing sailboats.)
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05-16-24, 09:11 AM
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Well, having looked at Cerchio Ghisallo, and an article on their products, it seems like wood is no heavier than aluminum, but also no lighter. It doesn't work as well for braking. AFAICT, their "clincher" rims are hookless. They describe using a 1mm thick carbon fiber insert on the inside of the rim - "Clincher Rims with a carbon fiber ring less than 1mm thick , applied with resin to inner tube seat at pneumatic/clincher rim surface." They claim this allows inflating to 6-7 bar, but if there are no hooks for the bead.....
So, overall, they seem like an expensive alternative to aluminum that is no better, and possibly worse. Usually when something is completely displaced by a newer technology, it's because the newer technology does a better job, so I don't see the point, apart from being able to say, "Look! I'm riding on wooden rims!
Then there's the "failure mode", which for aluminum is to bend permanently in a crash, vs wood's, which is to break and splinter, leaving ragged and sharp pieces.
So, overall, they seem like an expensive alternative to aluminum that is no better, and possibly worse. Usually when something is completely displaced by a newer technology, it's because the newer technology does a better job, so I don't see the point, apart from being able to say, "Look! I'm riding on wooden rims!
Then there's the "failure mode", which for aluminum is to bend permanently in a crash, vs wood's, which is to break and splinter, leaving ragged and sharp pieces.
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05-16-24, 09:12 AM
#8
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05-16-24, 09:13 AM
#9
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I do like my wooden chain. Though, the maple syrup lube attracts bees.
Last edited by DiTBho; 05-16-24 at 09:47 AM.
05-16-24, 09:24 AM
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I'd doubt you'd see a wooden rim for a clincher tire. But for tubular, they were made. Likely the first rims for a tubular tire were wooden. And I think some wheels used for time trials were balsa rims and the center disk replacing the spokes also balsa at one time before carbon fiber came along.
05-16-24, 09:46 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by genejockey
their "clincher" rims are hookless. They describe using a 1mm thick carbon fiber insert on the inside of the rim - "Clincher Rims with a carbon fiber ring less than 1mm thick , applied with resin to inner tube seat at pneumatic/clincher rim surface." They claim this allows inflating to 6-7 bar, but if there are no hooks for the bead.....
Personally I have learned to never go beyond specifications, at least if it is not an experiment
Originally Posted by genejockey
So, overall, they seem like an expensive alternative to aluminum that is no better, and possibly worse. Usually when something is completely displaced by a newer technology, it's because the newer technology does a better job, so I don't see the point, apart from being able to say, "Look! I'm riding on wooden rims!
I have exactly the same feelings, but I also have zero experience with this technology.
Ghisallo seems like the most expensive choice. 300 euros for a pair of rims, and part you have to buy
- a specific nipple kit to be able to use steel spokes.
- a "cork brake pads" kit, to avoid damaging the braking surface
There are two other local companies here, selling a kit at half the price, with nipple kit already included, and 160 euros is the same price I paid for a pair of H+Son alloy wheels.
I built a cart pre-loaded with 90km of concrete, for a total of 130kg, I mounted a classic steel+tugsten fork (the fork is/was 1.1kg, not among the lightest, it is among the cheapest, taken a super economical entry level bicycle), mounted a guinea pig wheel with a tire inflated to 7 bar, I blocked the descent of a road, I went to the top, I let the cart move with remote-controlled steering, and I made it crash with a final speed of about 40km/h a block of cement mortar.
Then I collected all the impact data, including streaming of several accelerometer sensors, both on the cart and in the cement mortar block.
I used wheels bought at a download price. Some only had aesthetic defects with braking surfaces to be reviewed, which I don't know if it's possible/makes sense, but I am sure that people...rather than strip the anodizing and polish a rim...throw the entire wheel away and buy a new one.
Good for me, so I got a Zonda 90s and a front Shamal 90s, front only, horribly scratched but both still straight, for 20 euros in total!
In total I "killed" 9 front Campagnolo wheels, incluuding a poor Campagnolo Epsilon. I don't have a lot of data, but I have a precise idea, from "36-spoke arranged in a three-cross pattern" to "24-spoke arranged in tangential pattern", I came up with the idea of profiles that better resist impacts and the type of spokes that discharge shocks better.
From what I have observed - my opinion here - it is "totally idiotic" to use wheels like the Campagnolo Shamal for non-track applications, because the tangential spoke pattern is the least safe and in an impact at 40km/h the rim deforms in a VERY dangerous way, but yet... people buy Zondas, Shamals, and all those Campagnolo wheels with tangential pre-loaded spokes.
So, ... before saying anything about the "failure mode", I'd like to check how a wooden + resin rim is damaged on impacts.
Unfortunately, as it is still a new technology, I can't find low-priced "guinea pig" wheels, and I can't find anything similar in landfill.
Ummm.
Last edited by DiTBho; 05-16-24 at 09:54 AM.
05-16-24, 09:48 AM
#12
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Originally Posted by Iride01
I'd doubt you'd see a wooden rim for a clincher tire. But for tubular
05-16-24, 09:54 AM
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yup, Ghisallo is one of the companies that make woodern rims, but specs for Hookless clearly says no more than 5 bar, therefore I think their carbon fiber insert doesn't improve anything, it just makes a pair of rims more expensive.
Personally I have learned to never go beyond specifications, at least if it is not an experiment
I have exactly the same feelings, but I also have zero experience with this technology.
Ghisallo seems like the most expensive choice. 300 euros for a pair of rims, and part you have to buy
There are two other local companies here, selling a kit at half the price, with nipple kit already included, and 160 euros is the same price I paid for a pair of H+Son alloy wheels.
I personally conducted a series of experiments to verify how aluminum rims are damaged due to an inelastic impact.
I built a cart pre-loaded with 90km of concrete, for a total of 130kg, I mounted a classic steel+tugsten fork (the fork is/was 1.1kg, not among the lightest, it is among the cheapest, taken a super economical entry level bicycle), mounted a guinea pig wheel with a tire inflated to 7 bar, I blocked the descent of a road, I went to the top, I let the cart move with remote-controlled steering, and I made it crash with a final speed of about 40km/h a block of cement mortar.
Then I collected all the impact data, including streaming of several accelerometer sensors, both on the cart and in the cement mortar block.
I used wheels bought at a download price. Some only had aesthetic defects with braking surfaces to be reviewed, which I don't know if it's possible/makes sense, but I am sure that people...rather than strip the anodizing and polish a rim...throw the entire wheel away and buy a new one.
Good for me, so I got a Zonda 90s and a front Shamal 90s, front only, horribly scratched but both still straight, for 20 euros in total!
In total I "killed" 9 front Campagnolo wheels, incluuding a poor Campagnolo Epsilon. I don't have a lot of data, but I have a precise idea, from 36H triple spokes to 24-spoke tangential spokesI came up with the idea of profiles that better resist impacts and the type of spokes that discharge shocks better.
From what I have observed - my opinion here - it is totally idiotic to use wheels like the Campagnolo Shamal for non-track applications, because the tangential spoke pattern is the least safe and in an impact at 40km/h the rim deforms in a VERY dangerous way, but yet... people buy Zondas, Shamals, and all those Campagnolo wheels with tangential pre-loaded spokes.
So, ... before saying anything about the "failure mode", I'd like to check how a wooden + resin rim is damaged on impacts.
Unfortunately, as it is still a new technology, I can't find low-priced "guinea pig" wheels, and I can't find anything similar in landfill.
Ummm.
Personally I have learned to never go beyond specifications, at least if it is not an experiment
I have exactly the same feelings, but I also have zero experience with this technology.
Ghisallo seems like the most expensive choice. 300 euros for a pair of rims, and part you have to buy
- a specific nipple kit to be able to use steel spokes.
- a "cork brake pads" kit, to avoid damaging the braking surface
There are two other local companies here, selling a kit at half the price, with nipple kit already included, and 160 euros is the same price I paid for a pair of H+Son alloy wheels.
I personally conducted a series of experiments to verify how aluminum rims are damaged due to an inelastic impact.
I built a cart pre-loaded with 90km of concrete, for a total of 130kg, I mounted a classic steel+tugsten fork (the fork is/was 1.1kg, not among the lightest, it is among the cheapest, taken a super economical entry level bicycle), mounted a guinea pig wheel with a tire inflated to 7 bar, I blocked the descent of a road, I went to the top, I let the cart move with remote-controlled steering, and I made it crash with a final speed of about 40km/h a block of cement mortar.
Then I collected all the impact data, including streaming of several accelerometer sensors, both on the cart and in the cement mortar block.
I used wheels bought at a download price. Some only had aesthetic defects with braking surfaces to be reviewed, which I don't know if it's possible/makes sense, but I am sure that people...rather than strip the anodizing and polish a rim...throw the entire wheel away and buy a new one.
Good for me, so I got a Zonda 90s and a front Shamal 90s, front only, horribly scratched but both still straight, for 20 euros in total!
In total I "killed" 9 front Campagnolo wheels, incluuding a poor Campagnolo Epsilon. I don't have a lot of data, but I have a precise idea, from 36H triple spokes to 24-spoke tangential spokesI came up with the idea of profiles that better resist impacts and the type of spokes that discharge shocks better.
From what I have observed - my opinion here - it is totally idiotic to use wheels like the Campagnolo Shamal for non-track applications, because the tangential spoke pattern is the least safe and in an impact at 40km/h the rim deforms in a VERY dangerous way, but yet... people buy Zondas, Shamals, and all those Campagnolo wheels with tangential pre-loaded spokes.
So, ... before saying anything about the "failure mode", I'd like to check how a wooden + resin rim is damaged on impacts.
Unfortunately, as it is still a new technology, I can't find low-priced "guinea pig" wheels, and I can't find anything similar in landfill.
Ummm.
Actually, no - I read they're made of laminated strips of wood. Break some plywood.
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"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
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05-16-24, 10:02 AM
#14
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Originally Posted by genejockey
Break a couple boards
Actually, no - I read they're made of laminated strips of wood. Break some plywood
Actually, no - I read they're made of laminated strips of wood. Break some plywood
Will it work? X___________X let's check it out!
But I don't even know how the "serious" wheels are constructed.
I think they definitely add resin, and that some are made of ash wood.
However, as I implied above... the profile given to the rim, and how it is spoked (how spokes are arranged), also matters a lot.
05-16-24, 10:02 AM
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Straight sided rims don't mean wooden.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by your simple reply. Are you wanting straight sided wooden rims? I've never seen any. But admit that doesn't mean someone doesn't make them for a very expensive price. But I doubt they'll look anything like the cross sections you showed in your initial post that are typical of aluminum extrusions used for rims.
Perhaps I'm misunderstanding what you mean by your simple reply. Are you wanting straight sided wooden rims? I've never seen any. But admit that doesn't mean someone doesn't make them for a very expensive price. But I doubt they'll look anything like the cross sections you showed in your initial post that are typical of aluminum extrusions used for rims.
05-16-24, 10:26 AM
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My take: either tubular for a true classic/vintage look, or it’s like a bamboo bike frame: viable but “niche” and there are much better choices unless you want something really quirky and not cost effective.
edit: I reread OP who wants clincher. Waste of time and money IMO, but if you want something quirky/unique, go for it!
edit: I reread OP who wants clincher. Waste of time and money IMO, but if you want something quirky/unique, go for it!
Last edited by datlas; 05-16-24 at 10:36 AM.
05-16-24, 10:34 AM
#17
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I haven't yet personally seen any wooden rims in person, but II have only seen a pair of steel rims (very strange thing) in TSS profile, and moreover with a brand of tires that I can't even pronounce.
Anyway, the material doesn't matter at this level; "Straight Sided" is known as (ISO 5775-2) "TSS" and its specs are well known on the paper, describing four simple things:
I would also like to try the new "airless" ones, which are not tubeless and have no inner tube, they are made of solid material.
Something that reminds me a lot of bicycles from the 1920s, with solid rubber-coated rims, just ... modern ones use - at least so they are advertised - more technologically advanced materials, and are much lighter
Anyway, the material doesn't matter at this level; "Straight Sided" is known as (ISO 5775-2) "TSS" and its specs are well known on the paper, describing four simple things:
- the internal profile of the rim (see image in my first post)
- the min and max inflating BAR spec
- the kind of tire you need to buy
- the procedure to correctly install/remove
I would also like to try the new "airless" ones, which are not tubeless and have no inner tube, they are made of solid material.
Something that reminds me a lot of bicycles from the 1920s, with solid rubber-coated rims, just ... modern ones use - at least so they are advertised - more technologically advanced materials, and are much lighter
Last edited by DiTBho; 05-16-24 at 10:38 AM.
05-16-24, 10:46 AM
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I haven't yet personally seen any wooden rims in person, but II have only seen a pair of steel rims (very strange thing) in TSS profile, and moreover with a brand of tires that I can't even pronounce.
Anyway, the material doesn't matter at this level; "Straight Sided" is known as (ISO 5775-2) "TSS" and its specs are well known on the paper, describing four simple things:
I would also like to try the new "airless" ones, which are not tubeless and have no inner tube, they are made of solid material.
Something that reminds me a lot of bicycles from the 1920s, with solid rubber-coated rims, just ... modern ones use - at least so they are advertised - more technologically advanced materials, and are much lighter
Anyway, the material doesn't matter at this level; "Straight Sided" is known as (ISO 5775-2) "TSS" and its specs are well known on the paper, describing four simple things:
- the internal profile of the rim (see image in my first post)
- the min and max inflating BAR spec
- the kind of tire you need to buy
- the procedure to correctly install/remove
I would also like to try the new "airless" ones, which are not tubeless and have no inner tube, they are made of solid material.
Something that reminds me a lot of bicycles from the 1920s, with solid rubber-coated rims, just ... modern ones use - at least so they are advertised - more technologically advanced materials, and are much lighter
Or just let some air out of the tires on your existing bike if they are narrow enough to support you at that pressure. As far as riding on them, hookless isn't going to change what they feel like at the same pressure.
05-16-24, 12:21 PM
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I would only use wooden rims if I was a collector and had a vintage bike that didn't look right with metal. Of course that means I'd use tubulars.
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05-16-24, 12:30 PM
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05-16-24, 01:49 PM
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yup, Ghisallo is one of the companies that make woodern rims, but specs for Hookless clearly says no more than 5 bar, therefore I think their carbon fiber insert doesn't improve anything, it just makes a pair of rims more expensive.
Personally I have learned to never go beyond specifications, at least if it is not an experiment
I have exactly the same feelings, but I also have zero experience with this technology.
Ghisallo seems like the most expensive choice. 300 euros for a pair of rims, and part you have to buy
There are two other local companies here, selling a kit at half the price, with nipple kit already included, and 160 euros is the same price I paid for a pair of H+Son alloy wheels.
I personally conducted a series of experiments to verify how aluminum rims are damaged due to an inelastic impact.
I built a cart pre-loaded with 90km of concrete, for a total of 130kg, I mounted a classic steel+tugsten fork (the fork is/was 1.1kg, not among the lightest, it is among the cheapest, taken a super economical entry level bicycle), mounted a guinea pig wheel with a tire inflated to 7 bar, I blocked the descent of a road, I went to the top, I let the cart move with remote-controlled steering, and I made it crash with a final speed of about 40km/h a block of cement mortar.
Then I collected all the impact data, including streaming of several accelerometer sensors, both on the cart and in the cement mortar block.
I used wheels bought at a download price. Some only had aesthetic defects with braking surfaces to be reviewed, which I don't know if it's possible/makes sense, but I am sure that people...rather than strip the anodizing and polish a rim...throw the entire wheel away and buy a new one.
Good for me, so I got a Zonda 90s and a front Shamal 90s, front only, horribly scratched but both still straight, for 20 euros in total!
In total I "killed" 9 front Campagnolo wheels, incluuding a poor Campagnolo Epsilon. I don't have a lot of data, but I have a precise idea, from "36-spoke arranged in a three-cross pattern" to "24-spoke arranged in tangential pattern", I came up with the idea of profiles that better resist impacts and the type of spokes that discharge shocks better.
From what I have observed - my opinion here - it is "totally idiotic" to use wheels like the Campagnolo Shamal for non-track applications, because the tangential spoke pattern is the least safe and in an impact at 40km/h the rim deforms in a VERY dangerous way, but yet... people buy Zondas, Shamals, and all those Campagnolo wheels with tangential pre-loaded spokes.
So, ... before saying anything about the "failure mode", I'd like to check how a wooden + resin rim is damaged on impacts.
Unfortunately, as it is still a new technology, I can't find low-priced "guinea pig" wheels, and I can't find anything similar in landfill.
Ummm.
Personally I have learned to never go beyond specifications, at least if it is not an experiment
I have exactly the same feelings, but I also have zero experience with this technology.
Ghisallo seems like the most expensive choice. 300 euros for a pair of rims, and part you have to buy
- a specific nipple kit to be able to use steel spokes.
- a "cork brake pads" kit, to avoid damaging the braking surface
There are two other local companies here, selling a kit at half the price, with nipple kit already included, and 160 euros is the same price I paid for a pair of H+Son alloy wheels.
I personally conducted a series of experiments to verify how aluminum rims are damaged due to an inelastic impact.
I built a cart pre-loaded with 90km of concrete, for a total of 130kg, I mounted a classic steel+tugsten fork (the fork is/was 1.1kg, not among the lightest, it is among the cheapest, taken a super economical entry level bicycle), mounted a guinea pig wheel with a tire inflated to 7 bar, I blocked the descent of a road, I went to the top, I let the cart move with remote-controlled steering, and I made it crash with a final speed of about 40km/h a block of cement mortar.
Then I collected all the impact data, including streaming of several accelerometer sensors, both on the cart and in the cement mortar block.
I used wheels bought at a download price. Some only had aesthetic defects with braking surfaces to be reviewed, which I don't know if it's possible/makes sense, but I am sure that people...rather than strip the anodizing and polish a rim...throw the entire wheel away and buy a new one.
Good for me, so I got a Zonda 90s and a front Shamal 90s, front only, horribly scratched but both still straight, for 20 euros in total!
In total I "killed" 9 front Campagnolo wheels, incluuding a poor Campagnolo Epsilon. I don't have a lot of data, but I have a precise idea, from "36-spoke arranged in a three-cross pattern" to "24-spoke arranged in tangential pattern", I came up with the idea of profiles that better resist impacts and the type of spokes that discharge shocks better.
From what I have observed - my opinion here - it is "totally idiotic" to use wheels like the Campagnolo Shamal for non-track applications, because the tangential spoke pattern is the least safe and in an impact at 40km/h the rim deforms in a VERY dangerous way, but yet... people buy Zondas, Shamals, and all those Campagnolo wheels with tangential pre-loaded spokes.
So, ... before saying anything about the "failure mode", I'd like to check how a wooden + resin rim is damaged on impacts.
Unfortunately, as it is still a new technology, I can't find low-priced "guinea pig" wheels, and I can't find anything similar in landfill.
Ummm.
05-16-24, 02:25 PM
#22
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Wood (done right) makes an excellent rim material. The reason it fell out of favor was rim brakes. That said, someone is going to have to get creative to make good flanges for clincher and tubeless. (Think wood/epoxy laminates like those used in most exotic pre-carbon fiber racing sailboats.)
05-16-24, 02:25 PM
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05-16-24, 04:36 PM
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I guess the point would be to attract attention but there are easier, less complicated ways.
05-16-24, 05:27 PM
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