Duragrouch

A good idea. Last I looked perhaps two years ago, refillable small propane bottles cost a bunch. I actually have an adaptor to refill regular ones from a large cylinder, but with caution and a scale to not overfill.

A heat (regenerator) tube would be good. I think propane is good to pretty low temp with no regen. MSR Whisperlite International and XGK both have regen tubes, and roar on high, but would not simmer as the fuel flow through the regen tube would be slow enough for the fuel to cool back down before it reached the jet, especially on both of those stoves that had big diameter regen tubes to easily clean with multifuel use. The MSR Dragonfly and Optimus Nova (I have all of the above, I'm a stove nerd) have no regen tubes, but instead a chunk of metal right at the jet base that keeps the fuel hot, plus regulate the fuel with a needle valve there (not at the bottle), as a gas, not a liquid; Either will lower down to a candle-flame and stay there, awesome stoves.

Stove is not my big touring problem. CPAP is. They have suitable lithium batteries now to power for days, but where to recharge? Can't while sleeping in tent, won't leave expensive 2nd battery charging in restroom overnight if campground has. What I need is a fuel-cell battery that will run on whatever stove fuel I have, that can be replenished easily. Oh and I did the math on dyno front hub recharging of battery, not even close, too large a battery, like trying to recharge an ebike battery using a dyno hub, very close in size.

For me, self-contained touring is half the fun. Credit-card touring is just not the same. However if I do southeast asia, both with reasonable cost rooms, and more importantly, lots of big creepy and wiggly things outside at night, I'll go credit card touring, probably with a Brompnot purchased locally.

Tourist in MSN

Carbide particles were shot at the rim braking surface at supersonic speed (thus, CSS), so the particles imbedded into the aluminum, so it is a much harder wearing surface but it is not simply a coating that can flake off. The carbide particles are part of the aluminum rim.

Harder brake pads are needed for the first several thousand miles while you are polishing the rim to be smoother. SwissTop and Kool Stop made special pads for the rims. My original Kool Stop pads are nearly worn down, but the rims look as good as new. The pads have fallen off of the SwissTop website, but the bottom ones on the KoolStop website page suggest that they still have some in stock.
https://koolstop.com/pages/brake-pad...nd-description

With the growth in disc brakes, the demand for CSS rims dropped to the point they have been out of production for years. Only Ryde (formerly Ridgida) made the CSS rims, but years ago someone else make some other type of carbide rims, but I do not recall whom. When I bought the rims, the CSS layer doubled the price, so most people did not buy them.

Rick

Duragrouch: I live in California so the canister stove is required. I have a Kovea Spider stove with a heat tube. Not all stoves with heat tubes even work. You can simmer with the canister inverted with the Kovea spider according to this . I have yet to try it. I bought my stove from FlatCatGear with heat shield and bake kit.

I believe your only option for the CPAP other than hunting wall outlets is a trailer with a Solar array and a second dino hub.

Tourist in MSN

Primus made and maybe still makes a remote type stove with a generator tube.

Looks like they still make it.
https://primus.us/products/express-spider-stove

I have one of these stoves that is white gas only, they also made a multifuel one. Mine in photo below, white gas but not butane. I think the white gas version like mine has been out of production for years, I got mine a decade ago.



They also made that stove in a multi-fuel version. And they make the Omni-Fuel stove that works with butane or liquid fuel.

I think that the Optimus Nova now is available as a liquid fuel and butane version, but with a different name?

Duragrouch

I hadn't known, but do see an article about (2022) impending ban of 1lb disposable propane bottles:

https://gearjunkie.com/news/californ...se-gas-can-ban

That may drive down the cost of refillable propane bottles... OH YEAH, they're already WAY cheaper on amazon than in past, 1/$19 or 2/$35! If refilled at the bulk place, that'll pay for those quick.

But are liquid fuel stoves banned too?

CPAP: Neither solar and/or two dyno hubs would be anywhere near the power generation needed. I toured once with a LWB recumbent and B.O.B. trailer, luxurious, but only on flat land, pushing it up one long mild grade convinced me that is out for any hills, plus impossible to transport by air or even train. One guy in the '90s I think toured that same way on what was called "Behemoth"(?) with USS bar ends rigged for typing as he rode, trailer and big solar array, to uplink travelogs frequently. Huge weight. This will make it more clear: The power output of an ebike? It would be like that, only in reverse, that much *drag* on riding as the forward thrust of an ebike motor; Just impossible to ride like that for more than a tiny distance, standing on the pedals. And this would be with greatly reduced power requirements of my CPAP, meaning no humidifier or tube heat functions, just the blower motor. That's all I need, plus no auto-start, no ramp up, no duration recording, no wireless signal connection, no bells and whistles, just a machine that blows at adjustable volume/pressure. Which is why, instead of my $1500 shoebox-sized home machine or $1000 softball-sized "travel" CPAPs, I'd just like a simple motor-driven fan (I think needs to be positive displacement, so I think a rotary screw with seals, not just an open fan turbine) with a simple pot/rheostat/digital-button to vary the blower pressure, that's it. It would be small, light, and not cost $1000 or even $500, but at most $200, and even there that is high profit. If I had workshop access with a lathe and mill, I'd make one myself. But even at that simplicity, and motors are way more efficient than heat, it's would still require a battery recharge about every 3 or 4 days with the batteries I am seeing only for about $150 each, last I looked.

Duragrouch

I think Primus was the first with a combination liquid and canister stove. MSR quickly followed suit. I think the Nova also is available that way now. Verstile, but if I want to use cartridges I'll just bring the Pocket Rocket Plus at like 3 oz., that's still a better deal for fuel density and output versus a soda-can stove or commercial versions, which take *forever* to boil and work terrible at even the slightest cold and altitude, like in Yellowstone at only a few thousand feet, I couldn't keep it lit.

EDIT: MF'er! :



The version for liquid AND canister is the Optimus Polaris, $200! And for canister it uses an adaptor that attaches to the heavy liquid fuel pump (quality aluminum instead of plastic), so you're bringing along a lot of weight for a canister stove.

tcs

FWIW, white gas is available in quarts (32oz, 0.95L) in many markets.

Duragrouch

Yes, but it's almost 3/4 the price of a gallon, for 1/4 the quantity. Look on REI, it's $15/quart (MSR) vs $19 for a gallon (Coleman). A quart of Coleman is $12 on amazon.

Many places have stopped carrying white gas, I don't know why, whether reduced demand or higher transport costs due to it being hazmat.

I loved having a gallon around, served many purposes; Stove fuel, thinning varnish (very similar to Varnish Makers & Painters (VM&P) naphtha), cleaning a spot on a necktie (my dad used to use gasoline and the tie smelled of it forever, white gas evaporates with no residue), petrol ("Zippo") lighter fluid at vastly lower cost, de-stickier.

PromptCritical 

I use a CPAP and on a car camping trip it used about 75% of a full size car battery each night. A fuel cell would de awesome for many reasons.

Google search shows some might be available but they look pretty small and use proprietary fuel canisters.

Duragrouch

Wow I'll have to look for those fuel cells, check progress on that.

75% of a car battery per night is a lot. Was that with humidifier and/or tube heat, or just the blower? I had bought an adaptor to do that but never used it, ended up staying in a motel as my vehicle was so full, no room to sleep. Also, lithium batteries have much higher power density; A friend has one of those power stations, I think actually a bit above TSA max, and he says he powered his CPAP for 3 days and it still had plenty of power left. (I'd read that Bike Friday made their ebike battery break into 3 layers, each just below TSA max so legal, then snap together at destination for powering the bike.)

You can't even plug a CPAP into cabin power on a plane, they won't let you, they require you use a battery and say it must be 150% size needed for one night. Liability I'm sure.

PromptCritical 

yes. Humidifier, heat and pressure pretty high. My sleep apnea is pretty bad and my sinuses are pretty sensitive so the humidity helps.

I have since bought a travel CPAP only to find out it only uses AC so an inverter is needed. I haven’t tried that yet.

Tha Bike Friday idea is a good one. I’ve thought about smaller batteries, but most of them are USB devices and getting the voltage up and maintaining the current might not be feasible.

Duragrouch

I have always run my CPAP with no water or heat, so a lot less cleaning. Only recently after upping pressure have I woke with really dry mouth and throat. But blower alone uses a lot less power, motors are efficient, joule heat is not. That's why for me, a super simple design of only a blower with adjustable speed/pressure should be quite feasible, and cheap.

Be careful with an inverter, most are not true sine wave but modified square wave; in the 1990s I fried an AC rechargeable flashlight, recharging it in the car overnight, and then the next day blew an alternator (even though charging while engine off), don't know if related because was also hot outside. Inverters have gotten better, finer and finer sawtooth waves, and I've powered electronic devices through them, but all using their own AC adaptors so that also cleans up the power. But kinda silly to go from DC to AC and then back to DC. My CPAP adaptor directly ups 12VDC to 24VDC. Some of the power stations can output directly in either voltage, so more efficient outputting in the voltage that the CPAP needs.

Propane fuel cells are now a thing. No price listed but the smallest of these is like 50 lbs, for an RV or sailboat:
https://wattfuelcell.com/products/watt-nomad/

Very small ones, circa 2005, this should be here by now:
https://www.caltech.edu/about/news/n...l-devices-1010

PromptCritical 

Yeah, those are the reasons I decided not to fool with the various batteries. I figured if the inverter fried my CPAP power supply it would be cheap to replace.

Duragrouch

Yes and also someone mentioned a problem, darn what was it... I think the lithium battery fully charged was ever so slightly overvolt for the CPAP so it wouldn't turn on due to protection circuit, they needed to slightly discharge battery.

Tourist in MSN

Yes, but I do not want to spend hours on tour for the time to search for it. I have already put into my GPS several locations where I can buy the butane canisters, along my route, assuming that they are not out of stock. I have found that most non-camping stores (hardware, etc.) usually have one of the two types of butane-mix canisters, and about half the time have both. But this is not based on a widespread survey, a few times when I was in a non-camping type store (hardware, etc.), I was curious so I checked their stock. It has been rare when I saw a quart size liquid fuel can or bottle at hardware type stores, they usually have the gallon size for the car campers.

I have bought liter/quart size white gas cans and plastic bottles on tours before, but their availability is less common than the others unless you are in an area with widespread camping stores. And the cost per btu for those liquid fuel quart/liter size containers is higher than butane cost per btu.

For my trip, I am bringing the adapter to convert a threaded canister type stove to a nozzle/bayonet type canister, thus should be well prepared for either type of canister since I have often seen stores that have one but not the other in stock. Starting trip with one nozzle type and one smallest size threaded type canister, plan is for the threaded to be a backup when I have no other.

Duragrouch

Yeah my local hardware (famous place) used to carry gallons of coleman fuel, and then not when the price went way up. Never once saw cartridges there, but then they were 2 miles from REI's flagship store that had both. Then the valuable land the hardware store sat on was bought and they moved to Idaho.

If I had a store along a bike tour route, I'd sell white gas fuel bottle refills at gallon unit prices, just like they sell bulk honey and maple syrup at the crunchy co-op. My local asian market breaks apart 8 packs of butane cartridges and sells at 1/8 the price, $2, for tall bayonet-connection cans. That may be the answer, I just need to see if anyone makes a lightweight stability tripod for them... yes they do:

https://www.amazon.com/Caudblor-Univ...dp/B086D8TFS3/

tcs

Just a quick price check on REI: 110g isobutane, six bucks / 220g, seven bucks / 450g, eight bucks.

Show of hands for who is surprised by this and doesn't understand why.

For the cycletourist that priorities cost above all else, by far the best BTU deal in cylinder gas is 20 lb refillable propane.

gauvins

In Quebec, 110g @ 7.95 CDN; 220g @ 9.95 CDN + tax
As it happens, I was looking up prices and availability in France ; 100g @ 4€; 230g @ €5.90 VAT included

Much cheaper in France

WRT the economics of it... I'd rather not carry a 20 lbs cylinder

Tourist in MSN

What size pannier do you suggest for the 20 pound cylinder of propane?

I mentioned above that I am starting my trip with the 100 g (or 110 which you already priced) and a nozzle/bayonet type 220 g canister, the nozzle/bayonet type is a bit cheaper than the threaded ones you cited. They have some on sale, this one is not on sale at $3.95.
https://www.rei.com/product/190769/e...-canister-8-oz

But a year or two ago I had a $20 gift card that would expire within days, so I bought a bunch of butane canisters since I had to spend it fast, so starting the trip with canisters I have already owned for a while.

Duragrouch

From what I understand, California now doesn't sell disposable 1lb propane bottles, and that has drastically brought down the price of refillable 1lb'ers. $19 or 2 @ $17 each on amazon. Most places here have 20 lb cylinder exchange, $25-30 and you only get 15 lbs. The local farm grange, last I filled, was $12 for 20 lbs, and they'll do any quantity at the same unit price. So that means 60 cents for a 1 lb fill. HOWEVER, I just looked, and the refillables on amazon say cannot be filled at bulk propane, but only from your own larger tank, with adaptor, and, I saw nothing about them having an Overfill Protection Device (OPD), which I think would be an even greater hurdle at bulk refill, they wouldn't do it, and it requires weighing the cylinder before and during filling. So that really precludes getting propane refills on the road.

But not necessary; Propane has 3X the vapor pressure of butane, so the bottles are heavier, and cheap butane 8oz tall-cans are $2 at the right places, not as cheap as propane but still cheap.

Ideally, you'd have the smallest size composite propane tank they make, but currently I only see 11lb + 12 lb tank weight for $162. I have in storage an aluminum tank, I think 10 lb'er, ideal would be a 5 lb'er with bulk fill valve, and only for a group tour. I see on amazon a 5 lb capacity steel tank at 9 pounds so 14 lbs total, with bulk fill valve and OPD, for $55.

So I guess it's cheap butane (3 season) and Pocket Rocket Deluxe, or white gas and any number of stoves I have. (Optimus Svea 123 for best style points. )

autonomy

And back on topic, Priority recently announced a Pinion C1.12/SmartShift-based Gemini. https://www.prioritybicycles.com/products/gemini

I'm also curious about Pinion and these two bikes for gravel & bikepacking. I think I like the looks and specs of Panorama Boreal a little more.

Peter J White

If you're going to the expense of a Pinion compatible frame, you may as well get their best Pinion drive. The C1.12 is a fine transmission for a commuter bike, but the 18 speed would be better suited for loaded touring. The C series transmissions do have the advantage of being lighter, and there are aftermarket shifters available for it. I'm not aware of any aftermarket shifters for the P1.18, but perhaps someone knows of any options?

Peter J White
Peter White Cycles

frogshawn

I have the P1. 18 and use the Co-Motion shifter for drop bars. The shifter works great for touring and commuting.

Duragrouch

That's what I'm saying.

Tourist in MSN

Welcome, you are well known in these parts already.