jesnow

New-ish fulcrum rim, Pirelli P-zero tire. The bead of the tire is stuck so firmly to the hook of the rim that I can't squeeze it into the middle with my hands, and my plastic pliers did nothing. The bead is so stuck up into the hook that the tire lever won't wedge in between, I even tried jamming a flat screw driver and turning it, but that did nothing. It's not that I can't get the bead levered, it's that I can't get the lever between the bead and the rim at all. The air is all out of the tube. I've been changing tires for 50 years, easily thousands of them and never run into this.

What am I missing?
Jon.

shelbyfv

Secure the wheel on the floor and mash the bead off with your heel.

Andrew R Stewart 

That you've bought into the modern view of how bikes are dealt with... I wonder if a pair of Bicycle Research or Park tire seater pliers would help out. Andy

freeranger

Might try heating the tire with a hair blow dryer on high to see if it makes the tire more pliable. Have no idea if this will work, but nothing to lose by trying.

FBinNY 

It shouldn't be this way, but sadly is.

Many years ago I had a tire that dry rotted and glued itself to the rim. Fortunately, I like oysters. My oyster knife* bailed me out. I tapped it in radially, then alternately twisted and advanced until I'd "cut" my way all the way around the rim.

*For those who don't know, oyster knives are pointy but dull, made for prying rather than cutting.

jesnow

Finally solved. That was a b*tch! In the end I used the "perch it on the edge of a 2x4 and stand on it" method, as recommended by youtube videos on how you change a car tire by hand. It seems that I am indeed failing to adjust to "how things are" in the modern world. It used to be that bike tires were engineered to be field-replaceable, but that is no longer true, at least not for road-tubeless. That's just how it is. They fit very tight on the rim, almost impossible to mount with regular tire levers, and you need compressed air to seat them. Once they're on they require special tools to unseat. Or a 2x4 and some patience. I'm sure I can make a press that will squeeze the bead off the rim (like you do for a car tire) by modifying an existing tool of some kind.

But just forget fixing a flat road tubeless tire in the middle of nowhere. Back in the day tires *had* to be field serviceable because there were no cell phones and the nearest pay phone might be miles away.

Thanks to everyone who made suggestions!

oldukbkr 

I had this same problem with a newish tubeless rim at the co-op recently. Really difficult to break the seal with the rim. Turns out it was a square bead/bead hook which I had not seen before. Head mechanic with gorilla hands finally got it free for me. Then replacing it was a bit like a car tire, used lots of soapy water all around the rim and the air compressor and you could hear it snapping back into the bead hook as the air pressure increased. I learned something new but in no hurry to work on one of these again.

Iride01 

On tubeless rims there is usually a bump on the inboard side of the bead seat. Combined with rim tape overlapping it, I'm sure it makes for more difficult bead breaking and perhaps bead seating too in some circumstances.

t2p

this is why I now often curse the tubeless world

Steve B.

It does indeed. That tubeless “ledge” is what helps a tubeless tire seat and hold air. Useless if using a tube. You have to make sure the bead of any tire is sitting in the middle channel when mounting or removing, tire will not go on or come off if your don’t do this. I like my tubeless systems, but the ledge design sure does make it a royal pain.

Iride01 

You don't have to tell me why it's there. I guess you were using my comment as a segue.

Steve B.

Others might read the thread and wonder what it does. Yes, just adding to the knowledge base.

rm -rf

I've had my HED Ardennes+ wheels for 9 years. They are "tubeless ready", with a channel for the bead. When I pump up a new tire and the pressure reaches about 50-70 psi, the bead snaps into the channel with a loud, startling Pop! (the bead stayed in the channel on each of the few flats I've had -- way better than a tire that completely comes off the rim.)

The older Continental GP5000 tires were reasonably easy to unseat, pulling hard with my fingers over the top from the opposite side.
Mounting tires is pretty easy, with just one lever.

But in the last few years (maybe 4 years now?), the 5000 tires are very very difficult to get the bead starting to unseat.
Hair dryers worked last year. This year, I just couldn't get the tire off -- a stronger rider pulled it loose before one of our group rides.
There's no room to slide anything under the bead, like a putty knife or small screwdriver. They will damage the tire and/or rim and still not get under the bead.

It's still not hard to mount the tire. One Pedro lever, lifting less than an inch at a time, then slide it over slightly and repeat. That's fast and efficient.

Wood tools for tire bead removal.
Adapted from a youtube demo. (Another mechanic used one of those wood clamps that have two fat wood arms and two threaded rods to tighten them.) I have a couple of scrap wood pieces now, to try the next time. a 1x4 to rest the rim on, with the wheel laid flat on the ground. And a 15 inch 1x2 with the end sandpapered a bit rounder, to lay on the tire just above the rim, and use body weight to pop it loose. I haven't had to try this yet.

Steve B.

The wheels on my new Emonda are Bontrager tubeless ready. When I installed some Conti GP5000 S TR tires, initially with tubes, they were a royal PITA to get onto the rims. I have one of those Kool Stop install tools which worked, but I don’t carry that on the road and pondered how to fix a flat. That pushed me to run tubeless, as the sealant at least helps prevent flats and then I (maybe) won’t need to put a new tube in,

Reynolds 

"...any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex..." as they say.

icemilkcoffee 

I don’t know how it is on a Fulcrum wheel, but on a Mavic Crossroc wheel, there is a break in the bead ledge, right opposite from the valve hole:


^ You can see the bead ledge has been milled flat at this spot. This is where you start pushing the bead off the shelf. Pushing anywhere else is an exercise in frustration.

FBinNY 

Clincher tires have improved greatly since i started riding tubulars in 67. I was getting fairly close to moving back to clinchers, but this, and so many other reports of mounting/discounting issues will prevent that.

I'm routinely way too far from home, and sometimes civilization on tours, to trade away field servicability.

jesnow

OP here: I completely agree with you: the original case for clinchers were field serviceability and I forget what else, because sewups were better in every other way. But now clincher tires are no easier to service than tubular tires. You may recall (I'm sure you do, but I'm saying this for the young folks) the immense flame wars about clincher vs tubular in the pre-internet racing forums, so I don't want to re-start those. Or I'll start another thread.

Cheers,
Jon.

Camilo

I've had this problem with a couple of different tire/rim combinations with tubeless and tubed tires on tubeless ready rims. They just won't budge off the "ledge" into the center indentation so I can get them off the rim. I've tried standing on the tire, squeezing it with the tire jack things, and everything else. Hand strength - at least my hand strength - won't do it.

A solution I have used, which must be used very carefully: I put the tire in a bench vise, taking very much care to get the vise to squeeze the tire right near the rim, but avoiding the rim itself. I tighten the vise to squeeze the tire beads together off of the ledge. It takes a lot of force. It doesn't seem to damage the tire - After getting the tire off, they seem to be fine remounting with or without a tube.

Some tire/rim combos I can get off the rim with my hand strength, same tire different rim and different tire same rim. I'm always open to suggestions beyond the bench vise - and yes, I've looked extensively on the net for suggestions, but this is the only way I've been able to get the tire off in these very difficult situations. I haven't tried heating the tire. I have also not looked to see if the ledge is milled down opposite to the valve hole on my rims. I will definitely check that out when the opportunity arises.

icemilkcoffee 

And the original knock against clincher tires is that they come off the rim too easily when they flat. The bead ledge fixes that problem
Anyways, tubeless wheels are really meant for tubeless tires that you put on once and take off when it’s worn out.

FBinNY 

IME flat tires coming off rims was never an issue with wire bead tires until tubeless.

So yes, the retention solves a problem, but it's a new one that arose with tubeless, so could hardly be called an original knock.

John E

So ... bottom line: What tires that I can buy new today will work with traditional hooked rims? I want on-the-road serviceability, so that I can change or patch a tube away from home. I can do this with my mountain bike and with the 27x1-1/4" rear wheel (non-hook rim) on my UO-8, but I am having an absolute b!tch of a time with new Continental tires on older hooked rims.

rsbob 

Another trick I learned from YouTube U was when my wife’s e-bikes rear tire was so tightly on the rim, I couldn’t wedge a thing in between it and the tire. The suggestion was to put the tire in a vice and slowly tighten it until there is a firm grip and then rock the tire to one side until it pops off the rim - and it worked great. As for ‘in the field’ flat repairs, fuget about it. She calls me to pick her up.

grumpus

The problem as described in this thread only applies to tubeless rims that have a pronounced bead retention hump. Tyres still mount on traditional rims the way they always have, with some combinations tighter than others, to the point that experienced mechanics may reach for their large steel tyre levers.

grumpus

I expect that's been suggested here too, it's a standard hack for breaking the bead on difficult tyres.