chain_whipped

Re-read and comprehend. Your assumptions put you in a special class.

My comments are not allegations but from real experience and observation. I also jump on Thursday night shootouts, drop rides with 'fellow' cyclist, quite a few of them half my age. Some of these kids are jacked up and solid riders. Actually we all get along very well, each our own competitive exercise. Maybe you'll never understand and not that it matters but I'll keep going for you stereotype.

I enjoy and own a wide variety of bikes, including very current MTB's. My most modern road (though not by today's kids standards) is a carbon Cannondale Supersix Evo w/ caliper brakes. This year for unexplained reasons I've been riding far more the later model bikes.

Staying on topic and discussion of the classic and vintage includes the understanding of the who's buying, what and why's. Maybe you'll learn something and get out of your bubble.

I do what I want, don't cave for the trends. My appreciation for classic bikes mostly started 40 years ago. Even still have earliest ti and carbon bikes to a few post war lightweights. Toe clips, DT shifters, direct lever action derailleurs are a blast for me. Bomb the descents and grind the climbs the way the bike was made back when is rewarding to me. I don't whine or wimp and truly enjoy a hardcore ride, solo or with younger punks. Bye.

3alarmer

...I think I was referencing market share, Tom. And the fact that the manufacturing industry for bicycles (as a whole), has a dominant position there. And they churn out a lot of product. The stuff we value in C+V is continually referenced as obsolete, (rim brakes, DT shifters, etc.) So who would really want to spend money on such a thing ?

I have no feel for what's going on in NYC, but I have some idea of what I see that rides around here, where I live. Disc brakes, e-bikes...the world is very different for the most part. Nothing wrong with that. But my point was more toward the idea of re-use. As opposed to new. Which I suppose can then get re-used. But maybe doesn't, for various reasons. I've been giving away some stuff. I get some pretty strange questions on it, at times. It was a comment mostly on what I've seen and experienced locally. These better bikes from the 70's and 80's are seen more as an oddity now, for the most part. There are some enthusiasts, but they are few in number.

Duragrouch

Mixed bag. To their credit, many young folks are not eager to own a car, a big money suck, and they also seem to value experiences over accumulation of things. I know someone graduated in a top field, working at good pay (not as high as in USA, but establishing citizenship in Canada where they schooled, so free medical), and either busing or biking into work. They have a nice vintage Cannondale no-suspension MTB that their dad bought cheap at the pawn shop and being chained outside for years in the pacific northwest, it was pretty ragged, but for $140 in parts and my free labor, it was restored to like-new function, for which they were grateful. They still bus between their apartment in CAN and parent's home in USA. They were grateful to get a black ballistic high-end carryon roller, and superb cookware, that I got at goodwill for 5% and 10% respectively and restored to near new.

I demand value, maintainability, and durability in most things. That rollaboard mentioned above, top quality except the wheels which had junk bearings which failed, I replaced with inline skate wheels and now it'll last forever. I've bought two bikes new in my lifetime, 1) A kmart 3-speed with a year's saved allowance, it worked, is all I could say, and 2) A Cannondale racer after graduating college, mid-priced, excellent value in a bike, I still have, in storage after 70k miles, only regret is wishing I had been more knowledgeable, if had known about rear OLDs, might not have purchased if known that 126mm was being phased out, I don't think I'll be able to fine UG freehubs and cogs going forward. All other bikes have been bought as huge deals used and overhauled to better than new. I didn't have any appreciation back then of the art of quality C&V bikes, now I do, and would probably ride one for function if I found a great deal on one, except that now I'm a 20" folder aficionado, with panniers.

It seems to me that steel frames have had a resurgence with oversize chro-moly tubes and welding, especially for loaded touring, such as Surly and others. I read many years ago that was smart for international touring in remote areas in case of need of repair, I don't know if that is still true.

I want recyclable, that is an even greater consideration for me on anything carbon fiber, than its fragility which is a close second. I want non-proprietary component interface standards, "open source", and wide selection at good prices on things like tires. I want a frame and fork that should last a lifetime in intended use. Repairable frame and common fork replacement are pluses.

I don't know if there has been a resurgence in handbuilt lugged steel frames, or even market maintained; With acoustic guitars, there used to be the big quality makers and that's it, custom builders very rare, but now there are a plethora of custom builders; Craft in that area is better than ever. So is beer.

So compared with a very pricey new bike at thousands of dollars, or overhauling a vintage frame at good cost via parts of amazon, I would choose the latter.

Having said that, only a few years ago, I saw superb deals on new; A Trek 520 chro-moly, and a Masi in same, both 700c touring bikes with superb welds, good tire clearance, disc brakes (in front, Trek with thru-skewers, Masi with forward-facing QR dropouts, and in rear, both having calipers inside the triangle), and well equipped with excellent front and rear racks, I think brifters on the Trek but bar-end shifters on the Masi, the latter more tour-reliable, and both bikes about $1500+tax, out the door, tour-ready. That's a good deal. Neither bike is available any more. That's a shame. I'd be hard-pressed to build up a vintage frame with equal quality and durability, versus the same available new, at a good price; If new and classic-style functional bikes not selling, how can C&V sell, unless only for style and collectibility?

AdventureManCO 

Yep, mixed bag for sure. And I don't generalize lightly. I tend to think that I float far outside of the generalizations people make of millenials - its tough to be judged based on the worst of us, regardless of what age or group you are. I'm definitely painting w/ broad strokes.

If newer kids are not into vintage, it is what it is, and yelling at the clouds, spitting in the wind, may be the only option, although I've heard of some having favorable interactions with younger folks and talking about older bikes, planting the seed, etc. I think more of the aesthetic comes with age - its rare to find when you are young. Those are tastes that get refined over time. I think one of the better avenues is to pursue the limited impact one makes w/ a used steel bicycle vs a new carbon bike, or a new e-bike. Cost is less, parts are stuff are going to be less as well, just gotta have a willingness to invest in a small amount of basic maintenance knowledge - servicing hubs/bb/headset, truing wheels, running cables, adjusting brakes and derailleurs, and you are nearly there.

But now that the price of older bikes continues to get even less and less, that 'smaller purchasing power' lines up even better w/ older bikes for sale

3alarmer

...maybe an example. There's a lot of interest in classic, older cars (the best ones, or the fastest ones, or whatever makes them "classics"). Because there is an endless supply of websites, and enthusiast blogs, and even TV shows, that promote them as something of value as a pastime...restoring them, driving them, etc.

Apart from a few resources like this forum, and websites like Classic Lightweights, etc., and maybe some few YouTube guys, the higher end classic bicycle demographic pales in comparison. So there's not as much interest, and you get the idea that "$150 is my top price" is a pretty pervasive attitude. I guess the people talking about selling the truly high end stuff on eBay are speaking from practical experience. But they seem to be few, and the exception to overall trending experience. Not sure who their customer base is. But I can guess at it.

iab

Just my opinion, but I think there is no doubt vintage bikes are going the way of the model train. Sure, you'll have onesies and twosies of younger folks who get into it, but their numbers will be significantly less than current enthusiasts (or, at the peak, the number of enthusiasts of the mid/late double aughts). Less demand, less money, as simple as that. Fine by me, times should change, no need to fight it nor wring your hands about it either.

The only thing I don't like about modern tech is currently the information on it is fleeting. Stuff is cool, but I can't have all the stuff so reading about it is something everyone can do. What happens when this site disappears? Also, 2 Japanese collectors come to mind, Hiroshi Ichikawa (HiCampy) and a fellow who's name I don't know that had a site called "My Bianchi". Both these people have/had some rare stuff where there is no information available. They stopped paying for their websites, the information is gone. Thankfully Hiroshi created a book called "Campagnolo Collection" that documents what he had on his site. Yes, the run of books was limited, but even in years to come, I would like to think it will be easier to find than a defunct website. My Bianchi is just gone, unavailable even on the wayback machine. That's a shame. Documentation is necessary to keep information moving forward.

cleverbeefalo

Thanks. I had to read this a few times because I'm a bit jaded to internet spheres and snark is often cloaked in kindness, but I appreciate your comment. I'm also a Millenial, what some might refer to as a "peak Millenial."

I understand the point and I think it's also important to highlight the mindset that leads to this. It's basically the avocado toast argument, but I can highlight in a different way. In my 20's I worked as a mailman. After about a year I became a regular and I became more and more aware of the fact that this was no longer a good federal job, like it once was. The pensions were already stripped bare and there was possibility for them not to be fully funded by the time I retired. A job where historically folks could be solid middle to lower-middle class had morphed into a stripped bare skeleton where the retirement benefits weren't great and the wages were stagnant to a point that maybe one day if I saved all my coffee money, avoided subscriptions, etc, I could have enough to buy a house in my 70's. I think that's why a lot of people say "eff it, why bother." I chose a different route and pursued another career, but I think that's illustrative of the fact that former middle class jobs don't equate to middle class life anymore. The jobs that enable that lifestyle are now less common and harder to obtain, leaving space for fewer people to move up the wrung. Add to that investment firms buying up single family households across the US and I can totally understand the disenchantment. Historically housing has been a huge force in growing wealth for the single family households, but the trends are such that fewer have access. In some states 1/3 of these houses are owned by private equity. I could go on, but don't want to derail the conversation too much.

Love this.

Thanks for the context.

Appreciate the transparency here, too. I get that there's always been generational divisiveness and one person is entitled to his opinion. Thankfully nowadays there's a lot easier access to fact checking. In this case, Chainwhipped's opinions on those individuals could be valid, but to arrive at the conclusion of "The younger generation is wasteful" is illogical and not supported by larger data sets. In fact, it's the younger generations spearheading much broadened efforts in conservation. There were many before them that started it, but it's only grown exponentially.

jamesdak 

Here's how the Holdsworth came out of the box.

iab

I like your enthusiasm, and there is no doubt aging has made me more cynical, but I do have experience. If I may make an observation/opinion, most people hate change, even more so as they age. And I completely agree communication is the path to understanding, but I think the opposition to change is greater and will always lead to old people telling young people to get off their lawn.

But enough kvetching from me. I'm off for a ride, lovely day here.

FrejusFlyer

Holy cow!!

Classtime 

Ten years ago +/-, our old bikes listed on CL competed with other new and used bicycles in a very broad market. Today our old bikes are competing with motorbikes. Bikes I sold to non-enthusiasts a few years ago were purchased to ride with friends who had bikes. Many of those friends now have motorbikes and their numbers are growing. I pedaled past a group of motorbikes on my way home yesterday and one in the group answered her phone, “Oh hi. Fine. We’re on a bike ride.” Wtf?

smd4

A perfect analogy.

There are some high-end collectible Lionel trains from the 1950s that still command high value, based predominately on condition. But I am able to buy less-perfect pieces today for prices that would have been unheard of 30 years ago. The guys who had massive collections of trains are dying off, flooding the market, Kids today generally couldn't care less about model trains. So...a boon for me, but not so much for the guys who planned on lavish retirement living by cashing in on their "investment."

rjhammett

I have sold off about a dozen bikes in the last year. They were mostly pretty high end vintage steel bikes. The prices were not great by any measurement. I still plan on selling 3-4 more or the bikes listed beneath name on the left. I am getting the distinct feeling that sale prices will be worse for these than the ones I sold last year. I am kind of dreading listing them for sale. I live in the Twin Cities which is a hot bike market so I am guessing prices are worse in other areas. I don't think there are a lot of us left that prefer classic and vintage bikes to carbon or e-bikes.

AdventureManCO 

There is a good video I saw a few years ago (wish I could find it now) about a guy who is passionate about woodworking and helping wayward kids who have no other trajectory than prison develop a passion for it. He describe this phenomenon using the analogy of a train, that we keep throwing information overboard, even as we steam towards a future of unrestricted access to most information - then that information is lost. In the video, he does a quick demonstration of how, on a wood turning lathe plate, they used to make that little round decorative square found at the corners of the trim that surrounded doorways in most of the old homes from 100 years ago.

curbtender

Rosette...

albrt 

I didn't know Holdsworth made folding bikes. Looks more compact than a Brompton.

RCMoeur 

Takes longer to fold than a Friday.

billytwosheds 

Margins aren't great right now, would not want to be a flipper.

Isn't this kind of thing cyclical? If you already see your time collecting and wrenching on vintage bikes coming to an end, then it's easy to get worried about the market.

Everything I have is hand built and made somewhere by someone doing something special. It'll come back around.

A lot of my bikes could qualify as art, just the rideable kind.

georges1

From my point of view,I check regularly price of frames such as Tommasini Techno Extra or Coppi made by Maschiaghi or Bianchi and when the tubing is high end and the condition outstanding, the prices aren't like to go down, ditto for Cannondale frames made in the US as well as the rare stumpjumper, sworks, FSR made in M2&M4 made in the US same with the older GT Zaskars, STS and Xizang as well as their rare road frame made of Reynolds 853 and the one with a frame made of titanium. The Breezer and the Scott Endorphin MTBs aren't cheap as well. The 7700-7800 Dura Ace new old stock parts prices have skyrocketed worse for the campy nuovo record. Some deals can be with the Treks 2200-2300 alumnium alpha road frames and their 6500-6700-8000slr mountain bike counterparts. The zr9000 frames are more expensive than they were three years ago. Frames from brands like Wilier, Faggin, Basso and Grandis also command a premium when using the highest grade tubing. Even older 26 rims for MTB when high end aren't cheap anymore , worse if you want to purchase a complete sets of older crossmax or crossride of the older generation in oustanding condition. I have never sold a bike, gave one as presents to a neighbor who helped me and one to my bike tech. In my country, people have a bad tendancy to think that what is vintage must and should be cheap by default. If I am ever going to sell something someone day which I doubt, it is going to be at the price of the market and regarding the condition my bike is but I am not going to sell it for cheap.

BMC_Kid 

Best of luck!

georges1

Nice humoring video, but when I sell something I rarely sell at loss. In 1999 , I acquired a mint in box campy athena crankset for 80€, sold it in 2004 for 250€ to a shop who was buying spare parts. I know what I have put in each bike and I know the total cost of each. Some people are probably fine with selling at loss because they don't know necessarily the real value of their item, I am not. The hobby is getting expensive over the years, you can do some bargains if you hunt but nowadays bargains are hard if not almost impossible to find.

cleverbeefalo

"I know what I got!"

dedhed

I'm not so sure you can always find parts as easy for newer bikes. You will often see in the mechanics section people looking for parts like FH, RD hangers, brifter covers/hoods, hub parts etc. and coming up empty. With the old tech you can frequently mix and match components between manufacturers. I'm also seeing issues with proprietary parts availability like seat posts and stems, not to mention the numerous BB types out there. With a C&V frame pretty much from the 80's on with standard threads, ability to respace, you can restomod new tech onto an old frame.

cleverbeefalo

It's unclear what your opinion is here. Are you arguing it's easier to mix and match parts with old bikes than it is to find replacement parts for new bikes? Perhaps pointing out the exceptions?

Besides, I was speaking in generalities. It's not hard to point out the exceptions. My argument was not "it's always easier to find replacement parts for every new bike than it is to get old parts for C&V bikes to mix and match." That'd be silly. Actually one of the best "upgrades" to bikes is the wheelset. By virtue of choosing C&V you're limited to rim-brake compatible rims (already miniscule to choose from) and the clearance of that particular frame. As others have pointed out, documentation on these bikes often goes by the wayside, so I'm left digging through forums for info that may or may not be correct. Considering I didn't grow up with the bikes I don't have all the details memorized. There are many tangles to sort through to actually build up a C&V bike. If I didn't enjoy the process I probably wouldn't do it/may not do it again. I don't know.

Realistically, in my budget, hopefully the new Cues brifters are out if I build another bike. Compatibility would be much simplified at that point.

Not sure how any of this pertains to the current prices of C&V, though...

3alarmer

...I think maybe you are better positioned in Europe. I have a very nice GT Course bike that I put together as a project. Here's the CL ad. I basically cannot give it away, because no one local seems to know what it is. The locals interested in this stuff number in the hundreds, insofar as I can tell. And this is NorCal, which generally has a year long riding season and a lot of interest in road riding.

I wish it were not that way, and I agree that it might turn around, if suddenly higher end steel becomes trendy again. Right now, here, I think it's not.