lima_bean

Im kinda irrationally scared of motorcycles tbh =P (riding on them)

LandLuger

The sheer amount of miss-information and outright ignorance being spewed by those who don't own ebikes is staggering. I would address each one in course, but the posts I have made in the past concerning ebikes are available to anyone willing to search the forum.

Basically, I see two purposes for the ebike:

1) Going from A to B expending the least amount of energy and/or the least amount of fossil fuels.

2) Expanding upon the capabilities of the rider be it pulling heavier loads, going faster, or going farther

That's it and that's all.

Rosie8

Wow, what a great topic! I would never discourage anyone from riding an ebike. Just saw one recently at my LBS. It was a Giant Suede E (electric) for $1k. Had rack in back. Very nice looking. The owner said he had sold a couple recently as soon as the gas prices started to climb. We have hills and very strong winds here. He says most people who buy them want to commute but worry about running out of steam when those darn winds suddenly come up. Yesterday we had gusts of 26-36. I think they were stronger in places because when I was descending the long staircase to the library, I had to hold onto the rail because the wind was blowing my feet sideways. We get gusts up to the 50's or so in spring. Somedays it's hard to breathe if you are facing into it. I admire all people who pedal. That's why I just bought a new cruiser.

Nicodemus

If you can't take a joke, don't be one

Zeuser

Is that what you tell yourself when looking in the mirror? LOL!

j/k

bemoore

Gasoline engines are not as quiet as electric motors, but for the most part, engines in vehicles are as quiet as they need to be. Most motorcycles generate more noise from their valvetrain and transmission than from a stock exhaust system. At somewhere around 35-40 mph, wind noise drowns out the engine and exhaust noise. So making them quieter would not be of any real benefit. However, if we are talking about small engines for bicycles/mopeds, that's different. It seems that the smaller the engine, the louder it is, at least in stock form. Think lawn mowers, leaf blowers, weed trimmers, etc. So, while stock motorcycle engines are as quiet as they need to be, the engines that you would put on a bicycle would likely be MUCH noisier than an electric motor.

Nicodemus

Motto of life, my friend

GGDub

I don't care what the law says. You've just put a mechanical motor on a cycle. Whether its a scooter, moped, or an ebike, is just semantics.

If the law makes the distinction that you can ride one that doesn't exceed 30 km/hr one on the bicycle path, that's fine. But dude, you came across like you were bragging that your eBike made you a superman on the hills. That's where a lot of sarcasm about these things comes from. You're not the superman, the motor is.

Zeuser

It's not just semantics. It may be to you in your limited mind but it's pretty obvious that these vehicles are not. Or put it to you this way: If it really were the same, I would've bought a moped. Oh wait... can't really pedal a moped (too heavy), need licence, need insurance, can't use them on bike paths/trails, completly worthless off-road. Oh... look at that... they really are different beyond the old "semantics" rhetoric.

Oh and they can exceed 30 km/h. I've done 45 km/h on my previous eBike (the heavy one). The law is just that power assist can't help you beyond 32 km/h (20MPH). But it sure looks like I can pedal faster than that.

And you are correct... I'm not superman, the motor is. And that's the whole point! The point you're just not getting.

GGDub

I guess you're right, my limited mind doesn't understand, but at least my legs are not so limited that I can't get up the hills without a motor.

JanMM

Nothing awful about putting electric assist on a bike but then using that bike becomes something that is not bicycling.

SDRider

California
Electric Bicycles are defined by California Vehicle Code section 406(b). The ebike equipment and operation requirements are listed in California Vehicle Code section 24016.

CVC 406(b) "Motorized Bicycle" states:

A "motorized bicycle" is also a device that has fully operative pedals for propulsion by human power and has an electric motor that meets all of the following requirements:
(1) Has a power output of not more than 1,000 watts.
(2) Is incapable of propelling the device at a speed of more than 20 miles per hour on ground level.
(3) Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour.

CVC 24016 "Motorized Bicycle Electric Motor: Safety and Equipment Requirements" states:

(a) A motorized bicycle described in subdivision (b) of Section 406 shall meet the following criteria:
(1) Comply with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 C.F.R. 1512.1, et seq.) or the requirements adopted by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (49 C.F.R. 571.1, et seq.) in accordance with the National Traffic and Motor Vehicle Safety Act of 1966 (15 U.S.C. Sec. 1381, et seq.) for motor driven cycles.
(2) Operate in a manner so that the electric motor is disengaged or ceases to function when the brakes are applied, or operate in a manner such that the motor is engaged through a switch or mechanism that, when released, will cause the electric motor to disengage or cease to function.
(b) All of the following apply to a motorized bicycle described in subdivision (b) of Section 406:
(1) No person shall operate a motorized bicycle unless the person is wearing a properly fitted and fastened bicycle helmet that meets the standards described in Section 21212.
(2) A person operating a motorized bicycle is subject to Sections 21200 and 21200.5.
(3) A person operating a motorized bicycle is not subject to the provisions of this code relating to financial responsibility, driver's licenses, registration, and license plate requirements, and a motorized bicycle is not a motor vehicle.
(4) A motorized bicycle shall only be operated by a person 16 years of age or older.
(5) Every manufacturer of a motorized bicycle shall certify that it complies with the equipment and manufacturing requirements for bicycles adopted by the Consumer Product Safety Commission (16 C.F.R. 1512.1, et seq.).
(c) No person shall tamper with or modify a motorized bicycle described in subdivision (b) of Section 406 so as to increase the speed capability of the bicycle.

CVC 21200 "Laws Applicable to Bicycle Use: Peace Officer Exemption" states:

(a) Every person riding a bicycle upon a highway has all the rights and is subject to all the provisions applicable to the driver of a vehicle by this division, including, but not limited to, provisions concerning driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, and by Division 10 (commencing with Section 20000), Section 27400, Division 16.7 (commencing with Section 39000), Division 17 (commencing with Section 40000.1), and Division 18 (commencing with Section 42000), except those provisions which by their very nature can have no application.
(b)
(1) Any peace officer, as defined in Chapter 4.5 (commencing with Section 830) of Title 3 of Part 2 of the Penal Code, operating a bicycle during the course of his or her duties is exempt from the requirements of subdivision (a), except as those requirements relate to driving under the influence of alcoholic beverages or drugs, if the bicycle is being operated under any of the following circumstances:
(A) In response to an emergency call.
(B) While engaged in rescue operations.
(C) In the immediate pursuit of an actual or suspected violator of the law.
(2) This subdivision does not relieve a peace officer from the duty to operate a bicycle with due regard for the safety of all persons using the highway.

CVC 21200.5 "Riding Bicycle Under Influence of Alcohol or Drugs" (source) states:

Notwithstanding Section 21200, it is unlawful for any person to ride a bicycle upon a highway while under the influence of an alcoholic beverage or any drug, or under the combined influence of an alcoholic beverage and any drug. Any person arrested for a violation of this section may request to have a chemical test made of the person’s blood, breath, or urine for the purpose of determining the alcoholic or drug content of that person’s blood pursuant to Section 23612, and, if so requested, the arresting officer shall have the test performed. A conviction of a violation of this section shall be punished by a fine of not more than two hundred fifty dollars ($250). Violations of this section are subject to Section 13202.5.

In Summary, Electric Bicycles are basically, by law, to be operated like conventional bicycles in California. There are two exceptions to this. A person must be at least 16 years old CVC 24016(b)(4). And all persons riding electric bicycles must wear a bicycle helmet as per CVC 24016(b)(1)

To be classifies as an electric bicycle[CVC 406(b)], your bike basically must three specifications, has working pedals to propel the bike, the electric motor must be under 1000 watts, and the electric motor is incapable of propelling the bike faster than 20 miles per hour by electric power alone. There is also an unclear addition to CVC 406(b). That is CVC 406(b)(3), which states, "Is incapable of further increasing the speed of the device when human power is used to propel the motorized bicycle faster than 20 miles per hour." This is unusual, compared to other state law, such as in Florida, which removed such wording.

People driving/riding Electric bicycles are not required to have financial liability insurance, driver's licenses. And electric bicycles are not required to be registered or have a license plate as per CVC 24016(b)(3)

Additional laws or ordinances may apply to the use of electric bicycles by each city or county, such as

For more information on California law that applies to electric bicycles, se California Vehicle Code and the Department of Motor Vehicles of California. You may also search California Code by key word (LINK)

Advocacy: see California Coalition of Ebike users (via Cycle Santa Monica! and CSM! blog)

Zeuser

You're weird man! You don't understand why eBikes are different than mopeds and then you come up with the "limited legs" argument which is ONE of the reasons people do get eBikes.

I think you do understand. You just don't like it!

GGDub

It was a comeback to your "limited mind" comment, not an argument.

I like eBikes, I'll never own one though, it defeats the purpose of riding a bicycle in the first place.

Zeuser

Wait a minute... if you like them, why do you consider them to be nothing more than mopeds? Unless your argument is that you like mopeds; in which case were right back at square one.

Robert C

I think that it depends on what you consider the purpose to be. If your purpose of biking is to enjoy maximum personal generated speed, or to expend maximum effort, then clearly an ebike is not for you. If your purpose is to use the bicycle as transportation or to replace some car trips then you MIGHT be in line to consider one.

I do not, personally, have or regularly use an ebike. However, I have used them and I see them as a great auto replacement in some cases.

The logic and attitude that I see here seems to hold that because my wife (an ebike user) does not like to take a conventional bike for her regular 4.5 mile (each way) trip because of the hill on the last mile then she should take her SUV (a Toyota Rav4). This is just plain silly. Her use is an ideal ebike application.

Those of you who hold that there is not a difference between using an ebike or a motorcycle have clearly not ridden both. I can assure you from experience and observation that she gets significantly more exercise on the ebike than she does on the back of my motorcycle or driving her SUV. No, it is not the kind of workout that many advocate, a workout that consists of holding 400w for the entire distance of the commute interrupted only by track standing at the traffic lights; however, it should not he mistaken for the passive riding activity that many here seem to think that it is.

Robert C

I happen to like mopeds. I think that the states made a tremendous mistake when they, effectively, eliminated mopeds in America. When I started riding, the basic rule was, moped was legal at 15, motorcycle learners permit at 15 1/2 and regular license at 16. This allowed time to transition from bicycle riding habits (lets face it, we all blow stop signs) to motor vehicle riding habits. Further, it caused one to make this transition on a low power, low speed, machine.

Compare that to the current situation of turning 16 and getting off the bicycle, taking a two day class that teaches nothing more than basic balance and then jumping on your 200mph Hayabusa or, if you failed the 2 day class, moms Tahoe. In an effort to grasp a bit of registration dollars from moped riders (before then they were registered as bicycles) and a bit of control over those “unruly kids on mopeds” (hell, they should be at home playing video games and eating potato chips, not running around outside) the various legislators, over a short period of time, managed to kill the moped and probably a lot of people who would have benefited from having these kids on a moped before the Hayabusa or Tahoe.

However, this discussion is not about mopeds, or even motorcycles. This discussion is about electric assist bicycles. These are entirely differently vehicles and are ridden in different ways.

lyeinyoureye

Fine, we can settle it this way. An electric bicycle is not a bicycle. It's an electric bicycle. Just like road bicycles aren't bicycles, they're road bicycles, etc....

adamtki

When I get on my ebike (cyclocross + bionx), I clip in, pedal, shift gears, maneuver like all the other bicycles, and ride the streets, bike lanes, trails, and grass. I deal with aggressive drivers, watch out for the glass and rocks on the shoulders. And then after a nice 12 mile 35 minute commute, I end up with a nice workout.

Sounds like bicycling to me. The only difference with me and my ebike is that I go an average of 4-8 mph faster, and my bike weighs about the same as 2 road bikes.

The biggest misconception about e-bikes is that you don't get exercise. On the contrary, with an e-bike you get closer to the right level of desired exercise on a more regular basis. If you wanna ride hard, an ebike is not going to stop you. Just turn off or lower the assistance or go faster. If you wanna ride easy, at least you get some exercise, cause you would've otherwise have taken a car.

dwainedibbly

This is an excellent summary of my experience. It was 66 degrees here this morning (and humid). There's no way I could have commuted on my "regular" bike without needing a shower upon arrival, so I ebiked it. I changed into cycling clothes before leaving work and got a nice workout on the way home. Tomorrow morning it's going to be colder, so I'll ride my Bianchi San Jose singlespeed commuter and get some exercise both directions.

If I had my choice I'd ride the Bianchi every day, but that's not just possible so I'll save a little gas, etc, and ride what is (for me) the next thing.

Jarery

An Ebike is awesome, if it gets someone to use it in place of a car.
Its not as great in my opinion if its being used in place of a bicycle.

I ride for health and fitness, both physical and mental. I dont give a rats ass about the enviroment. Heck i leave my car running in the driveway all day while i cycle to work just so i dont miss out on all this global warming excitement. Using an ebike instead of my pedal bike for commuting would get me to work faster, with less exercise. It defeats the purpose of why I commute.

I do believe you still get exericse on an ebike, just less. As the above poster mentioned, he can get to work without sweating, and hes in florida with no hills. Does one still get a nice workout? Sure but not as great as it would have been without a motor. And the talk saying you pedal just as hard but that you just go faster, well then my hour commute, with the same power applied by me thru my legs, would take less time with a bionx system added. So for an existing commute, it is LESS of a workout, therefore less of a health benefit.

If it allows you to commute by ebike where you previously only commuted by car, then its awesome. But for me, its only half way to cycling.

Why would i want to put up with the negatives (traffic, glass, etc) without getting the benefits (health).

Banzai

One.

Less.

Car.

Even if I think that a battery is something that I would never want to do...I'd rather cross paths with a battery assissted cyclist during my morning commute than some of the aggressive cagers out there.

Don't sweat the comments. I've been very entertained reading just how far ranging this discussion has gone. It's been educational.

Allen

It has been fascinating to watch Freds turn their noses up like OCP roadies.
Velo-power in all its forms means less cars.

adamtki

You'll eat those words when you find yourself having to resort to driving because of the daily 110 degree heat.

As I mentioned, you have the option to turn off the assist and you'll get a slightly better workout since the bike's a little heavier. And at the lowest assist, it's slightly easier to ride. It's all about having more options during your commute. You don't end up being forced to workout more than you want/need. If on the other hand, you find that a regular bike always gives you the right amount of exercise, then I guess you don't need an ebike.

LandLuger

I'll remind you of that when the inattentive soccer mom turns you into a statistic because you were climbing a hill on your pure, human-powered bicycle at 10MPH in a 55MPH zone.