noisebeam

That is my disagreement. I don't find any inconvenience. One (almost always) needs to put shoes on, so what is the problem with putting on shoes with a cleat? It's not harder than putting on any other shoe.

Al

Ian Freeman

My thoughts exactly. I rode platforms for a long time, but the special shoes and pedals necessary for a clipless system didn't suit my cycling style: hop off bike, walk into store, buy apples, hop on bike. Toe clips are a fantastic midway option, allowing normal street shoes to be worn while at the same time providing a stable and constant foot position.

As mentioned, I don't even notice my "upstroke" being more powerful, but what I do notice is my forward pressure on the pedal converting into more energy, instead of my foot just slipping off

zac

Well in fact he does contradict himself. And to be blunt, "his belief's" are irrelevant, especially when he takes the empirical evidence out of context. He first states that nobody needs clipless, that it is a complete myth, elites included; Then he goes on to support his "belief" with a study that he says states even elite riders AT NORMAL CADENCE...[blah, blah, blah] As has been pointed out ad nauseam the cited studies do not state that, and elite riders, nor many higher performance riders ride at NORMAL paces or cadences.

Now, if you have something relevant and constructive to add to this discussion about the OP, then please stay on topic. And for your information, those very same coaches, trainers, racers and (true experts) think GP is a complete no nothing flake, out to sell a warehouse full of bad business decisions. Now that is certainly more believable than what GP is saying.

ActionJeans

Study schmudy. I sometimes like to stand on hills, and that requires me to have clipless (if you climb right, anyway). And cadence? I supposed it's all what you're used to, but I can't get a real good cadence without my spd's. I have a single speed and a Bianchi Milano that both use platforms (eastern something or other on both, big, grippy platforms), and while they aren't bad, still nowhere near as good as when I'm locked in.

I'm in Georgia though, so it doesn't really get boot weather down here.

trombone

Reading some of Grant Peterson’s other articles, I think he has some interesting points. His contention is that for most everyday cyclists – perhaps the vast majority – equipment that is designed specifically for elite racing may not be the best choice. He’s probably correct that there is a certain fashion element that pushes people to choose racing equipment (and perhaps shops to push it, especially given that it is often more expensive) when it may not be appropriate. His comments about using tyres that are very skinny certainly gave me pause for thought (I run 25mm types). And is saving a few grammes by using some exotic (and possibly slightly fragile) racing parts really worthwhile when most cyclists – even serious ones – are going to be lashing bottles, tools, repair kits, cyclo-computers and lights to their bikes?

His article about clipless pedals is in the same vein, but in my opinion he misses the point slightly on this one. I do think a clipless pedal improves my efficiency in two specific areas; pulling away (where I definitely do pull up quite hard on the pedals) and when spinning really fast (at very fast cadences, eg when going downhill in a low gear and I’m near my limit for cadence speed my feet jump around in the pedals and I’m sure would fly off if they weren’t clipped in). I think his more general point could be taken on the system you use but not on the platform vs clipless debate (I use basic shimano SPD-SL pedals and cheap shoes, but I don’t think that moving to some exotic system with super-lightweight pedals would improve my efficiency very much, for example) .

That said, it’s a matter of choice. There’s no doubt that a bike is still a highly effective and enjoyable form of transport regardless of what pedals you have, so ultimately what really matters is that you are happy with your choice. (That last sentiment applies to the whole argument, actually. Lots of people get aesthetic enjoyment out of riding a more specialised racing bike even if they aren’t a racer – and that’s all that matters. If you love your bike and love riding that’s all that matters!).

charles vail

I guess for me it was the constant clicking in and out in town, not mentioning the three times I fell over. The fact that crud gets stuck in them making them stick and ice forms causing the same problem. I've seen a couple people have cleats break off or come loose, while pedaling, causing crashes and the generally poor walking comfort of even the ones touted as good for walking. I just find all that annoying and unnecessary. I'm not even mentioning the heavy clunky sole look (wait, I guess I am) I did notice on my recumbent however that they helped on long rides to keep my feet on the pedals as I have a high bottom bracket recumbent. I'm not totally against them, I just don't think they make enough difference on my upright bikes. I often got discomfort from the cleat mount or something on one shoe only. I suppose if using cleated shoes brought my average up 3 mph I might think them worthwhile but that didn't seem to happen. I went back to toe clips and straps, then tried power grips and finally settled on platforms. They suit my casual approach to cycling, in the sense that I can ride in any shoe or boot, even my slippers ( I have on occasion) on neighborhood trips. Naturally I don't use them for rides over a couple miles but I like the option of shoes other than cycling shoes. I'm not racing so I don't feel the need to be on a competitive level with others, equipment wise. I managed to ride my 56 mile RT commute using my sandals and cage pedals. I seriously doubt my time to work of 1:59 would have been any faster riding clipped in.
My old, fat body, with one bad knee and a heavy Long Haul Trucker, loaded up with work tools, extra clothes and lunch makes any perceived gains inconsequential in comparison.

charles vail

In regards to staying on the topic of the O.P. and his question regarding platforms vs. clip ins, has anyone tested G.P.'s theory?............yes I have and yes I have been on topic all the way. I believe my experiences,opinions and perspective have value since I have tested his theory in the sense that I have used clipless and currently use pedals without retention and can find no appreciable difference in performance, comfort or safety. That doesn't mean others won't or don't but I don't and apparently Grant doesn't and wants to convince others to try riding without clip in shoes. The O.P. was asking if anyone has tested his theory........ I have.

zac

And if you read the thread, you would realize that so have I. If a glass has a drop of water in it, then it is not empty. GP speaks in terms of absolutes, eg: no one needs clipless. My own test, as well as the bulk of performance riders, coaches, racers think he is full of ****, but regardless, if only one person benefits from clipless, then GP is wrong.

As to being on topic the whole way, I beg to differ, as your primary post quoting my post, references other articles and writings by GP, and how he differentiates elites from non-elites. You as well as he cannot have it both ways. If you say one thing, that is in terms of absolutes, then reasonably and logically, when called to task, you cannot fall back on something else that may or may not exist that you said or wrote at some other time. If you state something, state what you mean.

I am done here.

noisebeam

I don't even noticing clicking in and out. It is practically sub-conscious. I always had to pay attention to using clips/straps and never enjoyed having to readjust them after putting feet back in or trying to get shoe in on starting up from a stop. I've never once fallen over either with clipless. I live in an iceless place so I've never had the mechanism jammed, but I have ridden several times in snow (in Flagstaff on mtn trails) and never had an issue with any jamming (these are mtn bike style pedals, so they are designed to not jam with crud)
Never had cleat break. I have had worn cleats disengaged too easily. But that is easily fixable and prior to fixing not a ride stopper.
You are using the wrong shoe if having clipless means heavy and clunky. I have spent entire weekends including 6mi hikes in my cycling shoes. I went on a 1wk vacation and only wore my cycling shoe even though I was not cycling.
I have ridden multiple 100mi rides recreational-competitively in my sandals as well. Mine clipped in though. I played frisbee with lots of running at a rest stop at an 80mi fun ride with same sandals.

Even if there were no gains in performance (at least measurable), I find no downsides either.

It's great that different folks have different needs and experiences, all are equally valid, so don't take any of the above as an argument.

The only argument I have is portraying clipless as some 'racer' or 'competitive' need with the assumption that clipless means using shoes and clipless systems designed for those needs which are not good for much else. I'd be much more supportive of an article saying that recreational and transportations cyclists should consider using less racer oriented shoes/systems instead of arguing against clipless as a whole and/or using position to help encourage the industry to develop even a wider range of 'casual' clipless shoes.

Al

joejack951

How many hills on that commute? If it weren't for the convenience of being able to quickly get my feet into starting postion, I probably wouldn't mind platforms if I only rode on flat roads with relatively dry conditions. But, I don't and the times I've climbed hills without clipless after using clipless, have been the most frustrating miles I've put in on a bike compared to the (relative) pleasure of climbing with clipless pedals.

charles vail

Yes....I see where you are coming from and I agree perhaps the subject should be between rec/trans cyclists and pedal shoe combos for them, that are practical.
It seems to me that racing equipment these days is so specialized including the bikes and usually they have nothing in common with what works in a practical way for real world cycling. Sure, if a guy has a route that is clean and without traffic, in nice weather and he wants to get out and blast around thats fine. In my experience, on most rides far from home, I want a bike that is comfy, reliable and not prone to flatting or breaking down. The same goes for equipment and clothing, I want it versatile for a variety of reasons. The racing shoe/pedal combo isn't practical in any way off the bike and in some cases on it too.
I think that Grant Peterson has opinions based on his experiences and observations and since he is selling to people without racing emphasis, in their riding style, I can see where his opinions reflect that position.
I think his statements are a reaction to how racing has influenced regular cycling to the point where many, new to the sport, are intimidated by the thought of clipping in and wearing skin "tight stretchy pants for fun" (line in movie Nacho Libre by actor Jack Black) In my youth I had no problems riding with toe clips and straps pulled tight, including shoes shod with slotted nail on cleats. Talk about retention......if you forgot to loosen the left strap and an intersection and you lost balance on your track stand wam! over you went....very embarrassing. I'd never risk that these days, being 49 and not wanting to fall on my hip and shoulder, possibly breaking them. Can't afford the time off work or the medical bills. As a young guy I thought nothing of it and usually recovered from injuries quite easily. That horrifies many over 40 cyclists, the idea of being solidly attached to pedals and the learning curve that goes along with that whole deal. I think Grant recognizes his customer base, aging baby boomers with money and rightly designs his bicycles and approach to riding that works for them and anyone interested in comfort, convenience and versatility rather than, ultimate speed and performance on their favorite training loop. Most middle aged riders are happy to use their bike to go places and get some exercise and prefer to leave the actual racing to actual racers.....those lean, young, disciplined guys who put 50 in before breakfast at 4:00 a.m.. For regular cycling I don't believe we need clip in shoes period......if someone feels they must have them for safety or a slight performance gain then fine but it kind of runs counter to common sense, unless we've been brainwashed by buycycling magazine for the last 20 years. Most adults not brought up on cycling technology and marketing hype are aghast at the idea of having to spend $200 on shoes for wide feet and $150 pedals that click in and out easily and reliably and often ask......What do I need these for, why can't I just pedal like I did when I was a kid?
I know all the reasons why people buy them and I'm not buying it........they just aren't needed as many are finding out, much to some folks dismay. To the young racers types, I say, let them wear what wins or what their sponsors or coach tells them to wear.
For the rest of us, its largely a matter of preference. What I would like to see is a manufacturer make a normal shoe with a narrow heel, with enough toe room for hot swelling feet and a pair of winter boots along the same vane that can also be used for normal walking around. No cleat mount, just a softer rubbery sole but thick enough to keep the pedal pins from hurting your foot. Real leather would be nice too. There is nothing quite like a favorite pair of leather shoes once broken in........kinda like a Brooks saddle once it fits, its very comfy.

charles vail

The first 12 miles are rolling hills, then after going through one town, its flat until I pass the Casino then it gets hilly with a marked 8% descent (climbing it on the way back) but only 3/10 of a mile, then after crossing the river, I climb what feels pretty steep for about 2 miles then I drop back down an am forced to ride on the freeway for a mile or two, then another climb up the circular ramp and a drop back to a small town. I don't work there anymore but I live in the foothills of Mount Rainier in Washington State. To some of my urban Washington brethren, they know how hilly it can be around these parts. I use my gears (46x36x24 & 11-32) since due to my age, weight and a knee injury, I cannot pedal standing for long periods. I can't descend stairs well either and probably should have had it checked out long ago. Not sure if its arthritis or a meniscus tear or what but its better now than a year ago.

My page my bikes:
https://www.myspace.com/eccentriccyclistcharlie

noisebeam

Why not also add a recessed cleat mount to this optimum shoe you describe? (which by the way is still going to be a $100+ shoe, cleat mount or not)

I bought and used cycling specific shoes long before I added cleats to them, simply because they were a bit stiffer than running shoes. Some of these are ~$40

Take shoes like these and make them even less sporty styled, which mainly would be color changes only:





Al

Barabaika

Are we talking in the commuting forum?

What about this downside: there are usually stops and traffic lights every 500 ft in a city; you have to unclip and clip often or you just run lights and stops.

It's so easy to stop and take off your foot from a platform pedal.
You can also wear high heels or boots, etc.

noisebeam

I am a commuter. I find unclipping/clipping to be no more difficult than taking a foot off a pedal and putting it back on. Signaling and looking back require more thought and body motion, which I do more often during my commute.

Boots are an option with flat pedals. That is an advantage for those that prefer to wear boots.
There are boots with recessed clip less attachment, but I have only seen pictures and I believe they are costly (but no more than a good pair of regular boots)

Al

fender1

+1. Clipping & unclipping at lights, stop signs etc is not a big deal to me. I don't even think about it as I am doing it. Plus I am only unclipping one foot. I have found there is no need to unclip my second foot at a short stop. Walking around in spd shoes is not a problem either. I like a lot of what Grant does and use a number of his products/items. That said, I think his biggest product is "lifestyle" rather than bikes. This article is his opinion so in my mind it has to be taken as "opinion" rather than "science". Even if he presents his argumnet is a quasi-scientific way, I as the reader, have enough common sense to realize that he is a sales person for his company. That is not a negative in any way in my mind, just a fact that I use when eveualting the information I receive from Rivendell.

hhabca

I posted these to a similar thread in the roadbikes forum - not much response there...I'll repeat them here...

"Ok, I did the opposite - I took the SPDs pedals off my Trek XO1 to be able to ride around after work with the kids in normal shoes, and then try to ride to work and see what happens. I put on some really cheap plastic platform pedals, and rode with some light hiking shoes (more running shoe than hiking..)

First 1/2 km, my left heel hit the crank 4 or 5 times. My feet slipped around, and I didn't feel comfortable at all. Concentrated on my feet and the pedal motion to keep from slippping. Going s l o w. After 2km getting better - I'm on smaller gears in the back so the cadence is lower. At 3 km I have a stretch of gravel shoulder to ride on so I try it out (road is narrow here and I like the option of riding in the gravel shoulder...hence the XO1 with 35 tires..). The bumpy stretch went well, back onto the road and I'm not thinking about it so much. After 10 km I'm not noticing it much except when shifting and hitting the odd bump. No raccoons to jump but some drainage grates to bounce over are a bit more challanging with having to keep the feet on the pedals.

By the time I was done (22km) I wasn't thinking about it any more, just pedalling. No heel strikes or foot slips. My speed was a bit slower, 24 km/hr avg vs the usual 26 or so. But I have a cold and it was also 2C this mornig so I rode slowly until I warmed up. Maybe a small differnce in speed, but we're talking a commute, not a race. I can feel the muscles around my ankles got a work out from trying to keep my feet planted.

I'll try toe clips and loose straps next week, with some better pedals... "


then later that day....
"Well, the ride home was done in record time - 28 km/hr avg. I think hitting all the green lights helped, and the heavy traffic to draft with...anyway back to the topic no ones cares about.

Pedalling felt better this time - I think a lower seat height helps, as at the top of the pedal stroke I felt that to keep my feet from lifting off I had to lower my heal and get a bit of an angle on the pedal and push forward. I had no problems standing up to sprint as long as the gear was high enough. Anyway, I can feel that I used different muscles compared with being clipped in. I'd say this might be a decent training method to learn how to pedal better. I'm thinking I've always been pushing forward all the way through the stoke while trying to do that only at the top - mid way with the cranks level that is wasted effort! With no clips pushing forwards results in your feet flying off. I'm no time trial junkie (never done it) so all this is probably Old News to all the roadies here....

As for G.P. - I think the point of his rants is that you should be able to bike whenever you like without being tied to special clothes or shoes, and preferably on one of his rather expensive bikes. Odd thing is the kind of cycling he's promoting is probably best done with a $299 comfort bike bought from any LBS.

And the clipless PD-7401s stay on my Bianchi - no way I'm riding a road bike wearing cutoffs, a t-shirt, and barefoot in Crocks on BMX pedals! "

OK, and the next day my ankle muscles were sore - they did get a work out they normally don't get with my SPD pedals. The platforms are still on the Trek so I can hop on it and ride around with the kids after work, wearing work clothes and shoes.

Barabaika

If you look at the current catalog of Bridgestone, Grant's former company, just a couple of bikes can be considered to be "racer style", all other bikes are "casual style".
https://72.14.203.104/translate_c?hl=...log/index.html

Even their advertisement shows two Japanese girls in white skirts and white tennis shoes using platform pedals: https://www.bscycle.co.jp/root/format...07cf_02_30.mpg


Actually, what Grant should do is to buy a ticket to China and become a PR director pushing cheap Chinese commuters that look like the city bikes from the Bridgestone website:

fender1

Even their advertisement shows two Japanese girls in white skirts and white tennis shoes using platform pedals: https://www.bscycle.co.jp/root/format...07cf_02_30.mpg


OMG!!!! No helmets!!! Quick some post this in A&S and page I-Like-to Bike. I will go get a couple of beers and some popcorn for the ensuing melee!

D0ugB

I'm not trying to be nasty, but all commuting does not occur within a city. I have a 12.5 mile commute in a rural area. I have 10 stop signs on the route I took in today (one every 1.25 miles) and I ran most of them at 4:45 this morning. (I also saw a grand total of 10 cars on the way in today). I was never unclipped until I had to stop for the guard at the entrance to work.(It might blow they're minds if I did a trackstand while showing them my badge.) Even when I do stop I have no problem clipping and unclipping, it requires no thought or effort.

AJU

The idea that staying clipped in when there are traffic lights means running said lights is naive to me.

As a vehicle operator it behooves you to anticipate the light cycles, slowing early if coming to a light that's red or going red. Usually on the bike you can crawl up to the light as it's changing to green and then accelerate without stopping (no running the red, yet not unclipping either). The technique is more difficult to do in a car without frustrating drivers behind you, but it is a more economical technique as the considerable mass of the car needs to be accelerated less far. The awareness and engagement in the act of driving makes you safer too.

noisebeam

My 8.5mi commute has 19 total controlled intersections, including 14 lights, 4 stop signs and one 4-way stops. I make 6 right turns and 6 left turns. I average about 6 unclips and have never run a light and only very rarely never come to a full stop at all the stop signs. I do roll into red lights I know are going change soon, never cross the stop line until green, I come to a full stop at stop signs, but don't unclip less there is another vehicle/ped present. I also know which sections between lights I need to keep at a certain speed to make a green light.

That said, if I had three times the number of unclips I still wouldn't find it a hassle.

Al

Longfemur

The above is apples and oranges...

Sure, nobody needs clipless or even toe clips to hop on a bike and ride to the store. But that's a whole other activity than topping up the tires on your fine road bike, dressing appropriately for the activity... and then going for a long, spirited ride on the road (or even bikepaths) for a couple of hours, let alone for longer rides. In that case, there can certainly be some advantages. You wouldn't go skiing without the proper boots, would you? Well, people used to, believe it or not.

For one thing, as I think I've mentioned before, when you just ride with whatever shoes you happen to be wearing, you're going to get whatever effective saddle height you get from the sole thickness of those shoes. That won't do for people who ride finely tuned and finely setup racing bikes where even a 1/4 in difference will be noticeable and might produce adverse results.

Personally, I have never heard of anyone being forced by law to use any particular kind of pedal, so just use whatever you want.

I resisted clipless myself for many years, but I don't think I would want to be without them now. I do keep ordinary pedals around in case I ever change my mind, but I doubt I will ever need them unless my cycling shoes wear out and I can't afford new ones.

Barabaika

It's strange.
First you say that it's extremely easy to unclip.
Then you say that you avoid stops and use a special technique in order to not unclip.

Once I drove a big Jeep, it had the brake and gas pedals at different levels; so I couldn't just move my right foot from one pedal to the other, I had to lift it when I wanted to brake. This additional movement seemed very dangerous for me.

joejack951

28 miles at 14mph (56 mile RT commute, one way in 1:59 per your post) with hills on platforms pedals on a loaded touring bike? If your old and slow, I hope I can one day be old and slow too