JohnyW

Hi

I'm from "Good Old Europe" and not used to issue checks. Sometimes I saw credit card payments but for me the risk is too high. So for me only cash is a possible options.

Also I personal problem for me is that I'm a single person and have to pay for a site the same as a family with 2 cars and a huge camping caravan. Last Year in Canada I had to pay either 25 CAD for a site or ask somebody to share a site with me (for free). So I prefered the shared sites (especcially if I arrived at 9pm and left at 7 am)

Thomas

positron

I think that it depends where the 12/18 dollars will be spent... I guess I would pay the 18 dollars if, by some stretch of reality, that is what it cost to host my bivy for a night. I mean, I don't want to be egregious in my thievery.

However, it is more likely the money will be used to fuel 'expansion of the services' of the park, making it easier for motorized tourists to drive all over creation, have electricity in their land yachts, and sh*t-paper in their latrines. Honestly, I don't want to fund a widening of roads and increase in parking lot size in our national parks. I have no problem stiffing the man out of his 'development budget' for national park infrastructure.

Machka 

I'd likely leave and stealth camp, unless I were in a National Park where such things are not allowed ... in which case, I'd find a non-official spot in the park, set up camp, and pay $12.

Machka 

Or like the place I'm renting now and paying a monthly fee. In January, I didn't move in until January 7th even though the place was available January 1st because I didn't need it till January 7th. Nevertheless they still charged me the full month's rent because they couldn't rent it out to anyone else for the first week ... and I had no problem with that.

These sort of situations happen all the time in "every day" life.

PurpleK

Thank you, everyone. I enjoyed reading your replies to my original post.
Now here's how it went down.

I paid the full $18 for the electric site. As some pointed out, I had no reservation for a nonelectric site and figured I had to take what was left at the normal charge. However, I would like to point out that the campground followed that insidious practice of requiring a two night minimum for holiday weekend reservations. Walkups were not subject to this requirement. My available vacation time and distance between origin and destination dictated that I ride every day in order to be in time for my flight home, hence I was unable to burn an extra day at the park to take advantage of the reservation system. (It was the first day of my tour, so I really didn't want to spend a day off bike that early anyway.) I also figured that the campsite offered me electric. It was my "choice" whether to use it or not. (Would an RV tourist be permitted to pay the nonelectric fee if he chose to use batteries instead of the electric hookup? I doubt it.)
It so happened that I bumped into a park ranger the next morning and posed this question to him. He confirmed that I was required to pay the full $18 because the fee was for the availability of the electric hookup, not its actual use.

Wogster

Option C, pay the $18, camp off to the side, and if someone comes along needing the hookup, offer to share the site for $10......

Option D, look for another tent camper not using their full site, and ask if they want to split the fee.....

fantom1 

$12. The extra charge is for electricity, which he is not using.

It's one night, and most likely anyone who would be car camping and want an outlet has already selected a site.

chipcom 

The bolded text should provide your answer. Nuff said.

sknhgy 

I have found that a lot of campground hosts trip-out and get possesive and controlling about their campgrounds. I would pay the $18 just to avoid a possible hassle.

Bacciagalupe

You use the site, you pay the fee. Period.

It is irrelevant if you don't use the outlets. Let's say you reserved a site with outlets, and for whatever reason you didn't use it. You are not entitled to a $6 refund.

Plus, I don't know how anyone else feels, but $6 is almost nothing. I can't even buy lunch for $6. If you ran into this kind of situation once a week on a 10 week tour, that's a whopping $60. Shudder gasp. (Exceptions made for anyone on a fixed income. )

Raybo: I would've used the hiker/biker site -- or (less likely but possible) paid the full fee. Even if the manager let you off, you've left a bad impression.

Jeebs Fat

a, b, or c, depending on my current poor-factor

IronMac

Yeah, I put up a bad analogy before so I am going to try to do better this time around as to why I would pay $12. I still stand firm that one should pay for what one uses. That is why the park in this scenario charges different rates for different services regardless of what the park ranger said. I think he's wrong unless he was in on the original meeting determining the services and rates.

Let's go through some of the tangents that people have brought up in this scenario:

First off, a lot of people point to the "honor" system as if to suggest that paying the lower rate means that you're a crook but the honor system doesn't mean that you should be doing something that's unreasonable and unfair to yourself either. If you want to talk about the honor system, how many of us have trespassed onto private property, spent the night and then sneaked off in the morning? Sounds honorable to me!
Second, it's not a case of "how much" is involved and from the sounds of it some people might have a problem if they had to pay full price for an RV pad that would hold a Winnebago with full service hookups. It's the principle of whether or not to pay a different amount, not the amount itself.
Third, some people talk about renting a house with two bedrooms, one of which you're not using and so you still pay full price. Well, in this scenario there is no choice. I am going to assume that anyone who is reasonable would rent or buy a house that fits their needs rather than take the first one foisted on them. *Heed that subprime borrowers!*
Fourth, some people think that you're taking up a space that others cannot have so therefore you have to pay full price. Well, that is not a factor that has to be taken into consideration in the OP's scenario.

The way I look at is what is fair and reasonable? Do you tip extra if you use a self-serve gas station? Do you pay more if you're going for take-out? No, or at least you shouldn't.

Campgrounds have differing levels of service and, therefore, they charge differing levels of prices. One should not charge someone just for the "privilege" or access to services that they will not be using.

Let's twist this scenario around. Same scenario as posited, he's not going to use the outlet unless he wants to kill himself, no other spots available, and no other clientele coming in after him. If you were the campground owner and you were there when the OP showed up would you ask him to pay full price? I'd say that there's nothing fair, reasonable or honorable in doing so.

Rowan

The fallover point in your final scenario, IronMac, is whether anyone else is coming in. Machka and I have arrived in a campground (Jasper, and IIRC, Le Claire) at 9.30pm or later. I think we've heard new arrivals closer to midnight at others.

The campground is offering the site as is. There appears to have been no listing on the information board of an option to pay less if you take the site and don't use electricity. You don't have a legitimate claim to it if you only paid $12 when a late arrival in an RV is willing to pay the full fee.

If the site had staff on duty, things might be a whole lot different if that was the only site left, there were no bookings and no expectation of a late arrival. You might get it for the $12. They might, however, find another option for you to erect a small tent on an unofficial site, just in case there is a late arrival.

There is a perception out there that cyclists get "it" for nothing, and that perception breeds a certain contempt in many people's minds. Reinforcing that by evading designated campsite fees doesn't do those who follow you on bicycles any good whatsoever (NB: "You" is not directed at IronMac, but is the collective evaders "you").

Bizurke

In a situation like that I generally wait for the ranger to come around to collect unpaid sites. At the time I would explain the situation and ask if I can just pay the lower fee since I had no other option. If that isn't possible I would just pay the full fee.

staehpj1

The bottom line is that you as the buyer do not have the right to unilaterally set the price. In the absence of someone to negotiate with, you have only two choices that don't amount to theft, either pay the set price or ride on to somewhere else.

If you don't pay the $18 you are stealing unless you were able to negotiate some other arrangement. If you are going to steal there is no moral difference between stealing $6 or stealing the whole $18 other than you that you may more easily rationalize the theft. What is worse is that some folks steal the $6 and then not only rationalize it but go away acting like they are taking the moral high ground.

I would have more respect for the person who ducked out on the whole $18 and acknowledged the theft than the $12 guy who has not only stolen $6, but also weaseled out of admitting having done anything wrong.

Neil G.

I think you have a fairly limited view of economics. Prices aren't determined solely by the costs to provide the product/service. They are also determined by supply-and-demand. They charge $18 for an electric site because they CAN. In general, there are enough people competing for limited spots that they are willing to pay a premium for them. I really doubt that anyone uses $6 worth of electricity in a night.

I've been in campgrounds where there are different price-levels based solely on the view. It's the exact same thing: the host charges more for the "premium" spots not because it costs him more money to bring you the view, but because those spots are in high demand. So what do you tell him in that situation? "No, I'm only going to pay $12 because I'll keep my eyes closed the whole time"?

Neil

cptpitt22

I am always surprised at how many people take discussions like this personally. Everyone has his/her opinion, and is entitled to it.

In my opinion, I find it hard to believe that anyone who stealth camps in a park where pay sites are offered can judge people who wouldn’t want to pay the full price. I KNOW that it is different, and that it isn’t this simple, but think about it. The argument is basically the same. “I’m not going to use these sites, why should I pay for them? I’ll move where there aren’t sites.” and “I’m not going to use the electricity/view/whatever, why should I pay for it?” Different? Sure. But… where do you draw the line? The park has been set up for you as an adventurer, and you are using it as a safe shelter. You will likely use their bathroom, roads, etc. Yet you won’t pay for stealth camping?

My point: Stealth camping can be considered stealing, too, in the right circumstances, and the same excuses/arguments can apply.


Another thing to consider: personal finances. Jeebs Fat called it “personal poor factor” and Bacciagalupe talked about it as well. I’m glad that this amount of money isn’t a big deal to everyone, but it is for some.

I’m doing a 12 week tour, so run some math with me. If it happens once a week: $72. Twice a week: $144. Three times? $216. Maybe not for you, that’s a lot of money for me.

Now think about if I didn’t pay AT ALL every time I hit an honor campground that cost eighteen bucks: 1xWeek - $216. 2xWeek - $432. 3xWeek - $648. For those of us who worked a part-time job as they went to college this is a lot of money. C'mon, this trip is my post graduation adventure! Not only do I have to save money to pay rent while I am gone, I also have to think about saving money for camping fees!? Well, I have, but put yourself in my shoes… $18, even $6 (which buys me a meal, Bacca), adds up really quickly.

When I return home from my tour I’ll be getting a ‘real’ job (I’ve been working in a small restaurant). You can bet that I will have no qualms about donating to National Parks, joining groups like the Sierra Club, and paying full price any time I hit a campground like this. Right now, though, I really don’t have the money. Will I pay anyway? Probably. Will it hurt? Yes. Am I borrowing a lot of money for this trip. You bet.

Two things:
Let your conscience be your guide, and STOP JUDGING PEOPLE. Everyone is so wrapped up in their own little world they don’t want to take time to think about how other people live. (This is not just about you people here, my bike forum friends, but about everyone. Try to have some patience and tolerance.)

Those who have the money, please, support the parks. Those who don’t, you live with your choices just like everybody else.

cooker

If you drove up late at night to a motel and there wasn't another one for 100 miles, and this one had $50 normal rooms and $60 deluxe rooms with a fridge, and the $50 rooms were sold out, you would take the $60 room and pay the full price, whether you used the fridge or not. This is the same scenario.

staehpj1

1. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but but not entitled to steal.
2. If you choose to steal that is your choice, but stealing is illegal. It is also immoral by most peoples belief sets.
3. If you are going to steal the $6 then you might as well just skip out on the whole $18. Just don't kid yourself or try to convince us that it isn't stealing. I am sure most of the $12 folks would be outraged if someone beat them out of $6.

To me what is right in this case is clear and not subject to opinion or interpretation. That said as far as I am concerned folks can do as they please. I am not the camp cop.

It can be and often is at least trespassing if not stealing. It depends on the location and the local laws. I find it distasteful in most of the situations that are likely to be encountered while touring the US. Others feel differently. This one is a bit more subject to interpretation and opinion though.

fantom1 

Too. Much. Legalism. He's not stealing, or being a bad person, he's paying for what he used.

cooker

What he used was an $18 spot.

chipcom 

For sale: honor, integrity and honesty - 6 bucks or best offer.

QuickDraw

I'd pay $18, but i'd take a dump on the seat in the latrine, to get back at the other campers for taking the cheap sites.

Machka 

And if you read his follow-up post, he paid $18.

Machka 

Please don't ever tour.