Gibbygoo

I have a Casseroll that when I put a lot of torque/power to the rear wheel from a stop, the back wheel slips out of one side of the drop outs and rubs on the chain stay. Do you think it could be worn wheel skewers? I emailed Salsa, but they weren't much help. I can try another skewer, but I hate to force this to happen. By the way, the QR is pretty tight too. It's hard to get a good bite in the stainless drop outs.

HillRider

First, I assume your bike has horizontal dropouts, right? If you have an external cam qr skewer, it may never be able to develop enough force to retain the wheel properly. Get a Shimano (Ultegra or 105, not Dura Ace) or a Campy internal cam skewer and that should solve the problem.

Gibbygoo

Right. I am currently using 105 skewers.

HillRider

Well, those are able to generate very high clamping forces if you adjust them properly.
First, a potentially embarrassing question; you do know how to adjust the qr and tighten the flag and do know they are NOT wing nuts, right?

If so, the problem is more fundamental. Do your hub's locknut's have grooved or serrated faces? That will increase the retaining force. If the dropouts are stainless steel (or chrome plated) roughing them up with coarse sandpaper or a file will improve retention. Also, be sure they are dry and free of oil and dirt.

Gibbygoo

Yes. They are as tight as possible. I did scrape the drop outs to be sure the tape and clear coat was off them. I haven't tried sand paper yet. Also, the skewers I have came with some Open Pro's with 105 hubs and are a couple years old. They do have grooves, but seem a bit worn I might just get some Ultegra skewers, or barrow one from my other road bike. I have now searched this out and I'm not the only one having similar issues with Salsa stainless drop outs. Seems to be a problem with front wheels with discs as well.

JoelS

Could be as simple as the axle is a smidge (that's a technical term) too long on the side that's pulling free and so the clamp is clamping on the axle instead of the frame.

c_m_shooter

You could switch to a solid axle, but then you'd have to carry a wrench.

BCRider

That was my thought as well. Mount the wheel up without the skewer in place. The ends of the axles should be noticably but not a lot in below the outside faces of the dropouts. Around 0.5 to a max of 1mm. Even if it's in on one side and slightly proud on the other it'll mess things up and you'll want to adjust the nuts and cones to shift the axle to one side so both ends are in slighty from the outer dropout faces.

LWaB

Something else to consider if everything else is up to spec. Are the dropouts parallel?

OneTinSloth

get a pair of allen skewers (like delta brand), a very wide profile STEEL QR nut (like an old veratomic locking skewer nut) about an inch long and threaded all the way through to make sure you have maximum load dispersal, and tighten it down like you would a standard axle nut on a bmx. it won't slip again.

i've found that even with internal cam QRs, you can't get enough clamping force to hold a SS wheel in place, and with chromed dropouts, the chrome is too slippery to hold fast under a lot of torque. when trying to pick a new commuter, i looked at the casseroll, and would've got one, but for the sizing, and lack of cantilever studs.

russ3706

https://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...roll+stainless

Seems like a well documented problem for some. Which worries me as I just ordered one. It seems though like a axle tug like a surly tugnut fixes the problem.

So how do you like the Casseroll so far?

dabac

No need for that. For same materials in male/female fastener full strength is reached after the same amount of thread engagement as a normal nut would give. Anything more is down to design or adjustability issues rather than strength.

OneTinSloth

can you quantify "the same amount of thread engagement as a normal nut would give?" how many threads? what thread pitch? i'm not sure i know what the width and pitch of a "normal nut" is.

i'm not trying to attack you, your statement was ambiguous and i'm trying to understand what you're saying so that i can understand why they make nuts of the same pitch in different widths, with varying amounts of threading.

for instance, a "normal" m5 x .8 nylock nut is only about 3mm wide, with the threaded section taking up roughly half of that, so, two threads, maybe 2.5 threads tops and the nylon "locking" portion taking up the rest. is that enough to hold up to the torque required to keep a rear wheel in place? or a "normal" axle nut for a 3/8" bolt-on rear axle which has a thread pitch of either 24 or 26tpi is usually about 1cm-1.5cm in width. at most it would have 12 or 13 threads on the female side engaged. those are definitely up to the task of holding an axle in place, whereas the m5 x .8 is not.

help me understand what you mean by your statement. if i had an m5 x.8mm nut that was 25.4mm long, and threaded the whole way, why wouldn't it be able to handle a higher torque than a "normal" m5 x .8mm nut? i understand that one full inch might be overkill, but i have definitely seen "normal" QR nuts strip out when used in the way i am describing.

BCRider

Well, this is a good point. For normal bolt tensions the standard for mild steel nuts is 4 to 5 threads in engagement ( it varies a little from brand to brand but it's all close to this number). For higher strength alloys of steel you can get away with less threads in engagement Especially if the pitch is finer.

But I would not consider nyloc nuts as high tensile load fasteners. As you mention the nylon takes up some of the room that the steel would have. A nyloc nut should be primarily for vibration items to help avoid the nuts coming loose. Like where the parts being clamped by the fastener won't allow you to properly stress the bolt so you run with less torque and less tensile stretch in the bolt so it's more likely that at some point the tension will go to zero and the nut could walk it's way off. That's what they were really designed for. Not for supporting a skewer operating at very high tensile loads.

The half nuts used on bike axles are a different story. First off they have 2.5 to 3 threads in engagement thanks to the fine threads used on these axles. Second they are a hardened and heat treated steel just like the axles so the plastic deformation tensile figure is far higher for such parts than for the usual mild or near to mild steel. In effect our axles, cones and nuts are all grade 8 to 10 or so if you compare them to normal hardware grades. Because of this we can load them harder without failure by stripping the metal out.

So the answer to what torque you can use on any faster is "it depends.... ".

dabac

Most threads follow a fairly set pattern of thread dimensions being proportional to the diameter of the screw/bolt, and these proportions doesn't change much when the dimensions of the screws change.

My old engineering textbook stated that at about 3 full turns the material locked between the peaks and troughs of the male/female threads would begin to get stronger than the cross section of the screw.
(similar material assumed and fine threads excluded)

So you might want to add a turn or two to provide a little margin,(and there's some leeway dependent on which steel quality you're assuming) but there's really not much gained(strength wise) by having a nut looking like a long threaded sleeve.
If you go down to your hardware store and grab a handful of generic nuts and bolts of various dimensions and torque them until failure you'll discover the bolt/screw will usually snap before the threads strip from the nut. Take either of these and count how many turns it takes before the screw/bolt has reached full engagement, that'll pretty much tell you the practical optimum amount of engagement that can be used for a threaded interface.

See above, when material locked in threads exceeds material in screw/bolt core diameter no more strength can be gained.

Well, first there is a potential issue of dissimilar materials being used. If the male/female parts of the fastener are of different strength (a steel screw into wood would be an extreme example) then more threads are needed in engagement before full strength is reached. Another issue is how elastic the material are. If you have a stretchy screw and a rigid bolt then the force won't be evenly distributed over the different turns( it's never "perfectly" distributed anyway, but having material of different elasticity will make things worse.)
This is something I can definitely see happening for a CR, the skewer being a high-quality(stretchy) bit and the nut in a cheaper, more brittle material. That could cause the threads closest to the drop out to collapse one by one and eventually leave you with a fully stripped QR nut.

Then there's also the question of tolerances and repeated assemblies/dissassemblies. It's a complicated subject, lets just say that as parts are assembled/disassembled they will wear and the way they fit together will change. And as it changes so does the possible failure modes.

roadnsnh

I was having a problem with my rear wheel slipping in the dropouts, and someone suggested that skewers tighten a lot better if they are lubricated. I used some oil on the mechanism, and I haven't had slippage since. This may work for you, assuming your axle is the correct length. An internal cam skewer is better too.

Leland