What is your cadence?
#26
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Back in ‘74 us young lads heard that the serious bikers were doing 60rpm and that was our standard. Today? On my Cannondale Criterium, probably 80ish.
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Of course low cadence, by itself, is not the problem. But low cadence, particularly during climbing, is a proxy for higher force. And that higher force aggravates a knee that I twisted in my middle 20s. It's pretty hard to push that hard with a cadence in the 80-90 rpm zone, where that knee doesn't bother me.
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Not an issue unless I'm climbing.
#30
Perceptual Dullard
Of course low cadence, by itself, is not the problem. But low cadence, particularly during climbing, is a proxy for higher force. And that higher force aggravates a knee that I twisted in my middle 20s. It's pretty hard to push that hard with a cadence in the 80-90 rpm zone, where that knee doesn't bother me.
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So more torque means more strain on the knees to wear their joints out over time and for the quads' to tire them out and cramp them quicker during prolonged effort.
#32
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#34
Low cadence is a poor proxy for high force. I can pedal slowly with either low or high force. I can pedal quickly with either low or high force. Now that many of us have power meters, it's (way past) time to dispel the notion that low cadence hurts knees. In fact, even when climbing, once you've run out of gears and you're in your lowest, lower pedal force and lower cadence are directly (not inversely) related. That is, for any given gear, if you want to reduce force, slow down; don't speed up.
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There's no evidence that muscle force, per se, is bad for the knees. In fact, the available evidence supports the opposite conclusion, e.g., multiple studies show running prevents knee osteoarthritis, and resistance is an important part of joint rehabilitation. Cartilage is a living tissue which, like other tissues, responds to use with hypertrophy. What injures joints is force in the wrong plane or applied to an inadequately stabilized (weak) joint and, of course, once a joint is injured its tolerance for force decreases.
Last edited by MoAlpha; 04-10-24 at 08:59 AM.
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#37
Perceptual Dullard
So what you're arguing is that torque is equivalent to torque??? OK, I agree with you on that.
#38
Perceptual Dullard
I understand your point, but for a given power output lower cadence is harder on your knees. When you have run out of gears on a steep climb and you still need to produce say a minimum of 250W just to keep moving forward, then it gets pretty hard on your leg muscles and joints. A lower gear would be welcome at that point even without reducing power.
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There's no evidence that force, per se, is bad for the knees. In fact, the available evidence supports the opposite conclusion, e.g., multiple studies show running prevents knee osteoarthritis, and resistance is an important part of joint rehabilitation. Cartilage is a living tissue which, like other tissues, responds to use with hypertrophy. What injures joints is force in the wrong plane or applied to an inadequately stabilized (weak) joint and, of course, once a joint is injured its tolerance for force decreases.
The net result is still that using low cadence with lots of muscle will cause more knee issues. Even though the real cause was they didn't have their cleats adjusted or feet angled properly to give the knee free movement through out all of their pedaling. Particularly the power stroke where they ignored the signs because other normal things hid them.
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If you've run out of gears going up a steep climb, then slow down. In that case, decreasing cadence will decrease, not increase, crank torque. (To be fair, crank torque in that case is almost independent of cadence -- but to the extent that it's not, decreasing cadence will lessen crank torque; it definitely doesn't increase crank torque.)
If a person is in the easiest gear on their bike often for the hills they routinely climb, then that needs to be addressed by getting the proper gearing.
#41
Perceptual Dullard
There's no evidence that muscle force, per se, is bad for the knees. In fact, the available evidence supports the opposite conclusion, e.g., multiple studies show running prevents knee osteoarthritis, and resistance is an important part of joint rehabilitation. Cartilage is a living tissue which, like other tissues, responds to use with hypertrophy. What injures joints is force in the wrong plane or applied to an inadequately stabilized (weak) joint and, of course, once a joint is injured its tolerance for force decreases.
#42
Perceptual Dullard
Who wants to slow down when everyone else on the group ride are climbing faster? If a lower gear is available, then spinning a faster cadence will let one top the hill with pretty much the same watts expended for the time it took to climb as anyone else used that finished in the same group no matter what cadence any individual was at.
If a person is in the easiest gear on their bike often for the hills they routinely climb, then that needs to be addressed by getting the proper gearing.
If a person is in the easiest gear on their bike often for the hills they routinely climb, then that needs to be addressed by getting the proper gearing.
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Lifting in the gym is usually for resistance training of your muscles. The bike is the wrong place to be doing resistance training. The bike is for aerobic and anaerobic training of your cardio vascular system.
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My sore quads after a tough climbing ride have a different opinion.
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But bro, are you swole?
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#47
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#48
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Everyone should do what works for them. That said I don't worry about using a big gear some of the time. Way back when I was still young some of my buds marveled at the fact that I was often on the big ring on some fairly hard climbs. I semi jokingly said I was saving my thumbs because I was sure they would fail before my knees would. Well here I am at almost 73 with healthy knees and nearly constant pain in my thumbs and wrists for the past few decades.
Even as an old codger I still use a wide range of cadences. I spend a lot of time at 90 rpm and even some at 100, but I also climb at 60 a lot and sometimes less maybe at times a good bit less. I am pretty sure if I ever do blow out my knees it won't be because I don't spin like mad all the time. I suspect that in general pedaling at a variety of cadences is probably best for joint health.
Just my opinion though.
Even as an old codger I still use a wide range of cadences. I spend a lot of time at 90 rpm and even some at 100, but I also climb at 60 a lot and sometimes less maybe at times a good bit less. I am pretty sure if I ever do blow out my knees it won't be because I don't spin like mad all the time. I suspect that in general pedaling at a variety of cadences is probably best for joint health.
Just my opinion though.
#49
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The problem is that overrunning clutch (it goes by different names) hidden somewhere in the back of almost everyone's bike.
If you pedal at a nice slow cadence and with decent pedal pressure, that clutch never overruns and 100% of your pedal effort is translated into increased speed. Not a bad way to ride. It works. This is how I ride.
Now, attempting to increase your cadence by gearing down brings you away from that 100% efficient comfort zone. It brings you closer to the point where your clutch disengages and you are simply pedaling for effect with zero pedal pressure and zero power transmitted to the wheels. Wasted energy.
Other common vehicles you may be familiar with don't feature an overrunning clutch. A manual transmission car, for example, locks the power to the wheels and functions essentially like a fixed gear bike. An automatic transmission car has a fluid coupling, so if the power is faster than the wheels, that fluid starts to drive vanes in a torque converter, and the car accelerates.
If you really want to develop a faster cadence, you have three options. You could simply accept that you will spin out the overrunning clutch from time to time and lose power. Second, you could increase your momentum (typically by going faster). This makes it easier to keep from spinning out because physics will encourage your bike to keep moving at the speed it is at. Finally, you could learn to sense the pressure on that overrunning clutch and pedal just slowly enough to keep it engaged.
If you pedal at a nice slow cadence and with decent pedal pressure, that clutch never overruns and 100% of your pedal effort is translated into increased speed. Not a bad way to ride. It works. This is how I ride.
Now, attempting to increase your cadence by gearing down brings you away from that 100% efficient comfort zone. It brings you closer to the point where your clutch disengages and you are simply pedaling for effect with zero pedal pressure and zero power transmitted to the wheels. Wasted energy.
Other common vehicles you may be familiar with don't feature an overrunning clutch. A manual transmission car, for example, locks the power to the wheels and functions essentially like a fixed gear bike. An automatic transmission car has a fluid coupling, so if the power is faster than the wheels, that fluid starts to drive vanes in a torque converter, and the car accelerates.
If you really want to develop a faster cadence, you have three options. You could simply accept that you will spin out the overrunning clutch from time to time and lose power. Second, you could increase your momentum (typically by going faster). This makes it easier to keep from spinning out because physics will encourage your bike to keep moving at the speed it is at. Finally, you could learn to sense the pressure on that overrunning clutch and pedal just slowly enough to keep it engaged.
#50
If you've run out of gears going up a steep climb, then slow down. In that case, decreasing cadence will decrease, not increase, crank torque. (To be fair, crank torque in that case is almost independent of cadence -- but to the extent that it's not, decreasing cadence will lessen crank torque; it definitely doesn't increase crank torque.)
Whether or not a high pedal force and low cadence actually hurts your knees is really a different argument. It certainly hurts my leg muscles and increases joint loading.