Intermittent fasting news was not good today
#76
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I've personally learned quite a lot from arguing with MoAlfa. We are fortunate to have his contributions and insights.
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The study itself (or preview) already covers the potential flaws and limitations of this kind of long term study with limited data. The authors are not claiming that it is a causal link and one of the lead authors does express surprise at the data findings, given previous findings from short term studies. But what can they do? Just ignore the data? Or try to discover why there is a surprising link?
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My "bias" is to allow the established scientific review processes (peer review, publication in a reputable journal) do its thing.
As for the results being preliminary, that is what happens at conferences where people present new, unpublished findings. Conferences are also, more informally, part of the antagonistic review process, because people can argue about what is presented, attack it, reject it, and hopefully improve what survives critical analyses.
As for the results being preliminary, that is what happens at conferences where people present new, unpublished findings. Conferences are also, more informally, part of the antagonistic review process, because people can argue about what is presented, attack it, reject it, and hopefully improve what survives critical analyses.
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The study itself (or preview) already covers the potential flaws and limitations of this kind of long term study with limited data. The authors are not claiming that it is a causal link and one of the lead authors does express surprise at the data findings, given previous findings from short term studies. But what can they do? Just ignore the data? Or try to discover why there is a surprising link?
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i'm gonna say the same things I probably said in that disaster of a thread by that one dude linked above, current peer reviewed evidence demonstrates no real difference between intermittent fasting and standard calorie restriction, so it's really a matter of folks figuring out what works best for themselves. There's a lot of pseudoscience and unproven claims made regarding IF, much like other fads there's a lot of misinformation spread to overhype it
But please back up your statement with citations to the peer-reviewed evidence.
#81
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I've never tried IM fasting, but I have pretty much assumed the benefits greatly outweighed any potential risk. This newly reported preliminary finding is something I currently regard more as a heads-up. If it stands up to peer-review and its findings can be replicated, I'll regard it as a refutation of the assumption that IM is purely beneficial.
I don't have any personal stake in this. If IM is a way of reversing typeII diabetes and lowers cardiac risk as a consequence, I think it should be more widely promoted. I would really like for that to be the case, but if evidence to the contrary emerges, we can't just ignore it because it is "bad news."
Looping back to the quoted question, the answer is that (scientific) knowledge progresses, and sometimes that involves abandoning previous assumptions. The same logic applies to the following trivial example: I have a hypothesis that all swans are white. I observe 49 white swans, and conclude my hypothesis is correct. But I walk a mile upstream, and encounter one black swan. That is 49 observations of white swans vs. one observation of a black swan. Can I still conclude that all swans are white?
Last edited by Polaris OBark; 03-23-24 at 09:44 AM. Reason: clarity
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What ever the case, intermittent fasting or not, have a plan. And and remember if you are hitting the wall...
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#84
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your statement was
current peer reviewed evidence demonstrates no real difference between intermittent fasting and standard calorie restriction
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your statement was
current peer reviewed evidence demonstrates no real difference between intermittent fasting and standard calorie restriction
*deliberate
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Before hearing about this, I thought those benefits were well-established. But if new evidence emerges to the contrary, I will have to alter my opinion. If it turns out it that the newly reported analysis is a mistake, or a red herring, or bad statistic or whatever, then I will default back to the original position that IM is purely beneficial.
I've never tried IM fasting, but I have pretty much assumed the benefits greatly outweighed any potential risk. This newly reported preliminary finding is something I currently regard more as a heads-up. If it stands up to peer-review and its findings can be replicated, I'll regard it as a refutation of the assumption that IM is purely beneficial.
I don't have any personal stake in this. If IM is a way of reversing typeII diabetes and lowers cardiac risk as a consequence, I think it should be more widely promoted. I would really like for that to be the case, but if evidence to the contrary emerges, we can't just ignore it because it is "bad news."
Looping back to the quoted question, the answer is that (scientific) knowledge progresses, and sometimes that involves abandoning previous assumptions. The same logic applies to the following trivial example: I have a hypothesis that all swans are white. I observe 49 white swans, and conclude my hypothesis is correct. But I walk a mile upstream, and encounter one black swan. That is 49 observations of white swans vs. one observation of a black swan. Can I still conclude that all swans are white?
I've never tried IM fasting, but I have pretty much assumed the benefits greatly outweighed any potential risk. This newly reported preliminary finding is something I currently regard more as a heads-up. If it stands up to peer-review and its findings can be replicated, I'll regard it as a refutation of the assumption that IM is purely beneficial.
I don't have any personal stake in this. If IM is a way of reversing typeII diabetes and lowers cardiac risk as a consequence, I think it should be more widely promoted. I would really like for that to be the case, but if evidence to the contrary emerges, we can't just ignore it because it is "bad news."
Looping back to the quoted question, the answer is that (scientific) knowledge progresses, and sometimes that involves abandoning previous assumptions. The same logic applies to the following trivial example: I have a hypothesis that all swans are white. I observe 49 white swans, and conclude my hypothesis is correct. But I walk a mile upstream, and encounter one black swan. That is 49 observations of white swans vs. one observation of a black swan. Can I still conclude that all swans are white?
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Studies on human health and nutrition will continue to be only useful for headlines, period.
My recommendation: Use prisoners to do real science experiments
My recommendation: Use prisoners to do real science experiments
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If this study had illustrated any correlation between IM fasting and heart disease, I would be extremely interested in the findings. As it stands however with no exclusion of multiple factors that are proven to cause or at least increase risk of heart disease, and no verification of the accuracy of the information used, I see this study as less than worthless. I say less than worthless because it may influence people from adopting something proven through multiple peer reviewed studies to be extremely beneficial. You have to ask why this particular clearly useless and completely unscientific study has received so much publicity.
NHANES (and its predecessors) has been around for decades. It's the basic national survey that tracks nutrition and health, much like the Census tracks population growth and distribution, vital statistics track fertility and mortality, employment surveys track unemployment rates, and price surveys track CPI and other economic variables. It's pretty well-established, and NHANES (and the linked mortality dataset) have been extensively reviewed and have generated innumerable discoveries over the years. That you think NHANES is a one-off study shows you don't know what you're talking about.
That said, NHANES (and the linked mortality dataset) aren't used to "prove" hypotheses -- they're used as an early warning system, and to generate hypotheses. The reason why this poster presentation is getting so much attention is *exactly because* the finding is so counter-intuitive: the links between calorie restriction and weight loss is solid, and the link between excessive weight and mortality is solid. The expectation then is that the link between IF and mortality would be solid. The reason that particular link is so hard to research is for two reasons: first, you need a long time to examine mortality as an outcome, and, second, the linked mortality dataset hasn't been around that long. That means that there are lots of findings that couldn't have been done before the last few years. It also means that others will start to look into this question and perhaps figure out specific research studies.
So I'm sure the question of a link between IF and mortality will eventually get resolved, though not soon. The question of why you're so invested in this probably won't get resolved, but I'm much less concerned with that.
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If this study had illustrated any correlation between IM fasting and heart disease, I would be extremely interested in the findings. As it stands however with no exclusion of multiple factors that are proven to cause or at least increase risk of heart disease, and no verification of the accuracy of the information used, I see this study as less than worthless. I say less than worthless because it may influence people from adopting something proven through multiple peer reviewed studies to be extremely beneficial. You have to ask why this particular clearly useless and completely unscientific study has received so much publicity.
*Edit: actually, not published at this time. rather, a poster presentation
When I compare your discussion of the study, as compared to RChung and MoAlpha's discussion, I see a very large disparity in factual characterization and in understanding of the experimental design.
Further, your text displays a clear agenda. You are coming in too hot with criticism, resorting to strawmen arguments not actually based on information in the study.
IMHO, a dispassionate audience would be advised to read MoAlpha and RChung's discussion for a better understanding.
Last edited by MinnMan; 03-23-24 at 11:22 AM.
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Regarding intermittent fasting (IF) versus general calorie restriction (CR) for longevity, this study with mice found that restricting eating to the daily "active period" was about twice as effective as eating the same calories around the clock.
Findings:
Mice aren't humans, but 20% vs. 10% is quite a difference.
Findings:
- CR increased lifespan by 10%
- IF increased lifespan by 20%
- IF subjects had higher insulin sensitivity and blood sugar stability
- IF got deadly diseases at far more advanced ages
Mice aren't humans, but 20% vs. 10% is quite a difference.
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No, it's shoveling food!
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If this study had illustrated any correlation between IM fasting and heart disease, I would be extremely interested in the findings. As it stands however with no exclusion of multiple factors that are proven to cause or at least increase risk of heart disease, and no verification of the accuracy of the information used, I see this study as less than worthless. I say less than worthless because it may influence people from adopting something proven through multiple peer reviewed studies to be extremely beneficial. You have to ask why this particular clearly useless and completely unscientific study has received so much publicity.
By the way, which of the multiple peer-reviewed studies explicitly examined the incidence of heart disease in IM fasting? It is possible for IM fasting to have many benefits, but also some previously unrecognized harmful effects.
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The "Take Home Lesson" seems to be that there is not compelling evidence that one should not either adopt or not adopt intermittent fasting with any expectation of increased longevity beyond simple caloric restriction.
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I won't go into it, because it's laid out pretty well in this study and the title captures the meat of it, as it were::
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/8-ho...vascular-death
https://newsroom.heart.org/news/8-ho...vascular-death
- they had the highest BMI of all groups (29.9 vs 28.5 reference group)
- they self-reported a higher rate of CVD to begin with (8.6% vs 7.7% for reference group)
- they self-reported the highest rate of smoking (27.1% vs 16.9% reference group)
- they had the largest percentage of Black participants (23.2% vs 6.6% reference group)
- they were the smallest group in the study (414 out of 20,078), with just 31 CVD deaths
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A few things from this study poster are concerning. For the < 8-hour restricted eating group, which had the higher risk of CVD death:
- they had the highest BMI of all groups (29.9 vs 28.5 reference group)
- they self-reported a higher rate of CVD to begin with (8.6% vs 7.7% for reference group)
- they self-reported the highest rate of smoking (27.1% vs 16.9% reference group)
- they had the largest percentage of Black participants (23.2% vs 6.6% reference group)
- they were the smallest group in the study (414 out of 20,078), with just 31 CVD deaths
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A few things from this study poster are concerning. For the < 8-hour restricted eating group, which had the higher risk of CVD death:
- they had the highest BMI of all groups (29.9 vs 28.5 reference group)
- they self-reported a higher rate of CVD to begin with (8.6% vs 7.7% for reference group)
- they self-reported the highest rate of smoking (27.1% vs 16.9% reference group)
- they had the largest percentage of Black participants (23.2% vs 6.6% reference group)
- they were the smallest group in the study (414 out of 20,078), with just 31 CVD deaths
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Here is a link to the NY Times article accessible from outside the paywall.
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Gabe Mirkin wrote this article where he thinks the results of these studies are suspect.
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