CFDJ

I'm Building a bike for a friend from this frame, I am very curious about the manufacturer and not getting much from the base it's at. It has a French Threaded Bottom Bracket and follows a lot of french geometry for the tubes (not sure if Vitus, Columbus, Reynolds etc). I am considering stripping the paint to see if I might be able to learn more but wondering if you all think it's worth undergoing or if it might be another brick wall and not worth the money and effort. the bike seems very well made with it's brazed on parts and how light it is but doesn't match many bikes I've seen to a T. Thanks for any and all of your insight.

jdawginsc 

In my opinion, absolutely worth the effort. No fork?

Simplex drops, maybe...? ...definitely some French looking stylistic pieces, but also some things I associate with Italian. Could it be Belgian?

CFDJ

There's a lot I would associate with Italian as well! I haven't looked much into Belgium makers much but It does have aspects that match a lot of belgian makers I was not aware of existing. I think you might be onto something and It's likely they would on occasion make with a french BB.

Oh here's a picture of the fork

Feldman

I have seen those dropouts stamped as Vitus and not before@1982.

Chombi1 

That's either really thick paint on it or powdercoating. If it is powdercoating, it will not be as easy to strip the finish off that frame, so be prepared to possibly have to deal with it.....
The dropouts are most likely by Vitus, definitely not Simplex.
The frame looks almost artisanal (possibly custom), as it does not have too much of the typical budget shortcuts that high volume producers usually use and it has the nice touches like the brazed on under BB guides and FD mounting tab.
....but then, it also has very simple details too that you might have expected on an 80's Peugeot like the domed stay ends and barrel shaped RD cable stop.
So it is kinda hard to pin down what tye identity this frameset is.......

P!N20

Columbus dropouts?

machinist42

Is that a fender mount on the chainstay bridge? And there are no fender eyelets on the dropouts? Any unapparent means to attach a fender to the seatstay/brake bridge?

No reinforcements to any of the bridges?

Shining a narrow beamed light at near parallel to the tubing can sometimes reveal frame markings superficially concealed by a thick surface coating...

CFDJ

I was thinking that most of it was Vitus from the styling and it having similarities to some other french makers so vitus might make sense depending on it's production year but since it's bracket is french threaded we could likely be looking at right around 82 or earlier. unless like a person laer said, it could be custom and then it could be any year because of a request for X threaded bracket. I feel like vitus and columbus are equally likely.

CFDJ

You hit he nail on the head. it's simple details were originally leaning my to peugeot as well but the more i researched, this frame had lots of care done to it, especially with the subtly flattened chainstay tube rather than the dimpled a lot of makers used. it easily could be custom with the lack of branding but we will see what getting it down to bare metal will bring to light. I do believe it was powdercoated from its finish and thickness and how well the paint has held up from me riding it the past 5 years. I was going to take it to a guy in town to sandblast it since it was cheap and I know stripping is a whole ordeal I will ask to be careful around the BB, chainstay, headset in case there are some markers to be revealed.

smd4

I believe two sets of water bottle braze on's and a pump peg were pretty uncommon in the mid- 80s and earlier, except on the very highest top-end bikes (not that this couldn't be one, especially since it has a braze on FD bracket). These features became more common in the mid-to late 1980s.

smd4

Definitely a sign of a higher-quality frame. The seat stay ends where they attach to the seat post lug probably hold clues...

CFDJ

the small hole on the seatstay tube isn't for a fender but just manufacturing to allow for water to escape. It's also likely there so if the framebuilder wanted to add a fender they could bore out the hole and add an eyelet for a fender and no eyelets on the DO either or any way to add a fender. By reinforcement to the bridge do you mean brazed on ornamentation when attaching the bridges to the seatstay/ chainstay tube? in that case, no they're flush.

That's true about the light beam. a little while back I found subtle angle marking on the inside of the headtube and a small line going across the BB but otherwise nothing that indicates an identity.

CFDJ

Oh yes that's completely true I forgot to mention the double water bottle brazes were another idiosynchronicity since the BB would indicate something older but all the parts would indicate something mid 80's or yeah like you said something on the much higher end. At first I thought it was possible that someone had a lower end or basic frame they then added some brazed on parts to but as I learn more I realize this is probably more original because there was a lot done to it that you wouldn't just be able to modify.

CFDJ

I feel there is a lot hiding under the surface that I hope is still visible and not totally sanded down before the last repainted it. I recently asked the guy I bought it from years ago who they bought it from since they didn't do much work to it if they were still in contact but they got it off ebay and it didn't keep that history that far back.

machinist42

Actually a brazing vent hole, (which many attentive or obsessive builders fill in), but I was referring to the chainstay bridge.

This:

CFDJ

I got you. When you say reinforcement, are you talking about brazed ornamentation (like a diamond shape) when connecting the bridge to the chainstay tubes or something else? but yes other than this bridge there aren't any apparent ways to attach a fender to the rest of the frame. unless there was an alternative attachment available that worked with the brake bridge?

smd4

I've got a book a few books from the early 80s that discuss the different seat stay end caps from different builders. I'll see if these are identifiable.

CFDJ

Oh that's amazing! LEt me know if you need any other pictures that might help you nail something down. I also have more pictures when it was fully assembled.

machinist42

I can see the bridges are not reinforced.

What is going on with the chainstay bridge? It appears something protrudes from it towards where the tire would be? Could you please post more photos of different aspects of the chainstay bridge?

CFDJ

Oh yes absolutely! I was distracted and not totally reading the question correctly, my bad! There definitely is a threaded eyelet protruding from this for a fender but yes you are right it's very odd there isn't any other area to install one that I'm aware of.

Senior Ryder 00 

Hello,
There are fenders with an L shaped bracket which uses the rear brake bolt & special mounts that attach the fender stays thru the open triangle in the rear dropout.
looks like a very nice frame.😊,
Cheers,
Van

machinist42

Well sure, of course there are.

But if, in trying to determine the builder of this frame, the question is asked, "Who brazes in a chainstay specifically designed for fender attachment, and then does not attach dropouts with fender eyelets, front or rear?" an answer may be found?

My answer is "The French," and specifically "Gitane" Because of TdF variants, one of which I own. But I am biased Because of that. (In all fairness, my full 531 Falcon San Remo is a total anomaly too. Both are collateral damage from supply chain issues in the early 1970s, and that doesn't seem to apply here?)

Perhaps this quirky combination triggers someone's memory?

Chombi1 

Agree the DOs could also be by Columbus as shown.. I was thinking that the Vitus DOs were slightly thinner at the arms at the triangular window, plus, IIRC, the Vitus DOs had some slight bends to those arms that do not seem to be present on the ones on the subject frameset.

vtchuck

Just throwing this out there, but Cilo, a Swiss company might be a possibility. Some had French or Italian threaded BB's.... Maybe?

AeroGut

I also wouldn't rule out that there were originally eyelets that were cut off prior to the powder coat. Possibly some other changes made at that point too, like bottle cage mounts. No reason to believe that it has been preserved in original form.