Koyote

When I was young and new to my profession, I would inwardly laugh at the old-timers who would lecture us about “how we do things.” Almost always their rationale boiled down to “we do things this way because we always have done them this way.“ They were a big factor in my decision to retire young.

KJ43

Pfff...if you aren't carrying a spare wheel you aren't truly prepared.

PeteHski

This coming from the king of misinformation.

squirtdad

actual repair in the field is difficult involving thread and needle, but replacing the entire tire with a spare is fast....faster than replacing a tube or fixing a tube.

roadcrankr

Little bit disturbing to see some of you guys railing on Dave Mayer.
Sure, he came on with some strong assertions. No need to work so hard together to discredit him.
You accuse him of misinformation and bias, yet there you go coming back with your own brand.
Replace his use of 'tubular' with 'tubeless' and you all would've been heaping your praises upon him.

PeteHski

Given that the OP is aiming for an ultra-light climbing bike and is comparing tubular weight against a tubeless setup, then carrying a spare tyre defeats the point of the marginal weight saving. It should at least be taken into account in the weight weenie analysis.

squirtdad

as I recall there is difference between the rolling/rotational weight and weight you are carrying so not sure how much difference that would be.

in any case for total weight comparison, one would need to consider tire weight, sealant, innertube weight, patch kit weights, spare tire in all the combos. I would think tubular will still come in lighter.

I am not a fan of tubeless for anything 32mm and under and that the ability to do field fixes is more difficult on tires that are hard to get on and often need special tools/compressor to get the bead to sit, but it seems that plug fixes have gotten a lot better in the last couple of years

79pmooney

I commuted for decades on tubulars because the change was so fast. I was never late for work and I felt real comfort knowing that if I flatted in a shady neighborhood at night, in 5 minutes I'd be on my way. (Probably on a very crooked tire but they always got me home.) And whatever caused that flat wasn't going to cause another. I didn't even have to look to find it. And you can do that change in the rain, in the dark, in the snow, inebriated (well that might take a little longer) or in any combination.

tomato coupe

Good point.

PeteHski

The difference in rotational vs static mass is insignificant when climbing. Total mass of bike and rider is all that matters in calculating how fast you will climb the mountain.

So yes, you do have to weigh all the repair items, sealant etc to do a direct, true comparison. It might still work out lighter with tubulars, but you can’t ignore the weight of a spare tyre, which is going to be pretty significant in this comparison.

Dynaplugs are pretty effective for punctures that refuse to seal and I’ve never had to remove a tubeless tyre at the roadside. But I think the OP is already familiar with tubeless setups anyway.

terrymorse 

No difference at all.

Dave Mayer

Rotating weight is the single most important performance aspect on a bike. Climbing effort is not just the static weight of the bike and rider combined, but overcoming the dozens of hard surges on each long climb. During these accelerations you'll be on the limit of popping off of the back. If you get dropped, woe is you.


So light wheels may only get you 5 feet of distance gain over a few miles, but this 5 feet is the difference between a cozy energy saving draft over the next XX miles, and the monumental suffering trying to connect back with the group, which may never happen. We all know the terrifying urgency of losing the wheel ahead; this is when light wheels make the difference.


Yeah, yeah, there is is this arbitrary UCI weight limit thing, but nobody checks this at low-level events and weekend warrior rides. Regardless, wherever possible, if its a matter of dollars, save weight on the wheels vs. the frame.

Atlas Shrugged

And the urban myth continues.

Trakhak

I imagine that the OP is perfectly aware that carrying a spare tubular will defeat the purpose of buying the lightest possible wheelset but doesn't care---it's the thrill of owning what is potentially the lightest bike and wheelset he's after.

And it doesn't matter to the poster you're responding to that guys like RChung have proven through science-based studies that rotating weight is no more significant in races than weight elsewhere on the bike---it feels good to believe that he knows better than the science guys and the result of us.

Which isn't uncommon---there are still plenty of people willing to argue that aluminum frames absolutely are harsher-riding than steel frames, that titanium is the ultimate indestructible frame material, etc. No amount of evidence to the contrary will persuade them, either.

tomato coupe

As a cyclist, this makes me laugh. As a physicist, it makes me cry.

PeteHski

For the benefit of the OP, none of these accelerations are significant enough to make any difference with rotating vs static mass. The physics is relatively simple and the pro teams have calculated the effect it has on real world courses (TTs, climbs, crits etc). I even made my own simple spreadsheet to calculate wattage required to accelerate static vs rotating wheel weight. All that matters is the total mass when climbing. Even in a crit race with multiple hard accelerations, the effect of rotational weight is pretty minimal.

See episode 4 below for more info.

https://www.swissside.com/pages/podcast

Koyote

I’ve been shot off the back in countless races and hard group rides, and never realized that I was supposed to feel terror.

Such hyperbole.

t2p

potential issue with tubeless flat is when the bead ‘unseats’ and will not seal again using the co2 or pump (or whatever) carried on the ride

the dynaplug (or whatever) might seal the puncture - but tire can not be inflated … so tube is required to complete the repair / ride

t2p

you apparently were riding / racing with the kinder / gentler groups

not me - nuh uh … the groups I rode with were nasty … so nasty they only ate the heads off animal crackers

rosefarts

I’ve had both.

The advantages of better cornering and rounder tires probably doesn’t exist anymore. Not nearly as many options for tires as there used to be but I doubt they’ll cease to exist any time soon.

Still, I would consider using the tubular in this situation.

You already have a great wheelset you’ll be using most of the time. The majority of your miles will be spent on relatively user friendly clinchers. That will cancel out most of the negatives of using a tubular setup as a daily driver.

Steep days where there may even be a car waiting for you on the top. Sure, go for it. It’s the wildly impractical second wheelset. It’s supposed to be fun.

I would love to lace up set of wooden wheels for my road bike. I’d ride them a few times a year.

A couple things I’d think about before getting anything, in this particular case, it’s a consideration for both wheelsets you’re looking at.

-Most wildly steep climbs tend to be on mountains that have frost heaves and potholes, descending those mountains can be fast!!.
+
-You’re probably not going to be able run tires larger than 28mm.
+
-What do you weigh? Hopefully not over 160lb.
=
Does this give you the heebie jeebies?

I’m not necessarily saying it should, but those things all need consideration in the ultralight world.

PeteHski

I agree, but never had that particular issue. But then flats are a rarity since I went tubeless. Literally 1 in 3 years and it deflated slowly enough not to unseat. It was actually on a pretty quick straight descent when I ran over a sharp piece of metal. I needed to plug the cut with 2 Dynaplugs to seal it, but it inflated fine with my mini-pump.

tomato coupe

Wes Craven made a movie about this: "Terror Off the Back"

Koyote

Yup. Found this in my tire at the end of a recent ride. It was buried up to the hilt, flush with the tread. I pulled it out, immediately jammed in a plug, and barely lost any air. Tire is still in service.

Would a tubular tire have worked as well in this situation?

Koyote

The way he describes racing, I’m guessing he’s never done it. It’s like this movie scene:

Atlas Shrugged

And the urban myth continues.

Actually, giving you the benefit of the doubt I just assume you have no experience with tubeless. Once seated, especially after sealant been applied, it’s actually quite challenging to unseat tire and extremely rare occurrence when out ridding. Such a catastrophic failure would mean any other tire would have been destroyed as well. Throw in a tire liner and TPU tube and you are good to go.