Originally Posted by Hermes

VT1 is interesting but what about lactate? And what if you do not accumulate lactate in your blood. Then what?

Originally Posted by Hermes

Here are some ideas for you and questions for you to think about but not required to answer.



My coach is a perceived effort fan and always reminds me that it is NOT about the performance during training. It is doing the complete workout at a perceived effort that allows one to compete the workout. Looking at HR and Power daily and trying to set PRs and better FTP and etc is a fools errand.

I am a power junkie but I have learned not to chase power numbers during training. When my coach prescribes a max effort I know what that feels like in my legs. If it is an endurance ride, I know that that feels like. The same is true for a time trial or VO2 work.

This week I have to get in 3 to 4 interval session and 2 endurance rides with a 15 to 30 minute threshold effort. Part of the work in doing this type of prescription is laying out the course, which bike to ride and then when will I do it. I am only going for 2 interval sessions not 3 to 4.

Interval sessions are like taking a drug. How big is the dose and what is the frequency. I took the correct dose on Tuesday and Thursday. If I do another one tomorrow, I may not do very well over the weekend on the threshold effort. And next week, I will be at the track with him which will be even harder. So I know how I feel and how I respond to stimulus and recovery.

Training is an art form.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

OMG. IME it won't hurt your endurance, but it sure can bite hard if you go over. Though if you keep this up, it will cut into it. I see why you do so well on so few hours. I only do that sort of thing to peak before a taper but I'm more delicate.

Originally Posted by Jughed

Attempted 4x4 VO2 intervals at 310w+ and failed after the second interval - power and HR zone was too high for the session.

Originally Posted by GhostRider62

All you ever wanted to know about thresholds and their history is in the following link.

I suppose it goes without saying that the lactate vs VO2 curves of a couch potato and a fit endurance athletes are very different. The fit rider's curve is shifted to the right and down. In practice, it means the top of their zone 2 will be much closer to CP/FTP/MLSS levels than an unfit individual. Interestingly to me, older marathon racers can do an entire marathon at 90-95% of VO2 max (not a typo).

https://physoc.onlinelibrary.wiley.c....1113/JP279963

Originally Posted by MoAlpha

I have seen those data on old athletes too and the point was made that their VO2max was relatively low due to age, but that their aerobic capacity remained high. This is certainly welcome news for us crumbling dotards.

Originally Posted by terrymorse

As one myself, I have noticed an increasing ability to go longer at a higher intensity. I'm guessing that's due to the reported boost in old guy endurance/shift upwards in lactate threshold. I'll take it.

Originally Posted by GhostRider62

Interestingly to me, older marathon racers can do an entire marathon at 90-95% of VO2 max (not a typo).

Originally Posted by PeteHski

For me that would be 358W for 3+ hours! So that's about 15W higher than the Paris Roubaix winner's average power. Obviously not going to happen.
The only way I'm going to get to 95% of my VO2 max is to have a really low VO2 max power and therefore a seriously limited power band width.

Originally Posted by PeteHski

If you are relatively new to VO2 max intervals, I would start with shorter intervals. 4 x 4 mins at true V02 max is really hard, especially if recovery is short. You will probably find it more productive to start with sub 1 min intervals and do more of them. I do a lot of 20/40s, 30/30s and 60/60s. I rarely do V02 max intervals above 1 min unless I'm racing or preparing for a specific event where I know I will need to do them. They just hurt too much and take a lot of recovery. For me at least, I find the shorter intervals less fatiguing for the same total volume. Also if I do say a block of 60/60s and my HR isn't recovering fast enough on the rest intervals I just extend them to 60/90s i.e. keep the intensity, but extend the recovery.

Originally Posted by Jughed

Are you doing the short intervals at or around 4-5 min VO2 max power, or all out power?

Originally Posted by GhostRider62

I doubt you have a VO2 max of 400 watts, I doubt you have ever had it tested.

Are you arguing that there are not older (60+) marathon runners with a functional capacity of 90-95% of VO2 max? It doesn't take much research to show that is true.

But you are correct, it won't happen on your HIIT diet or as my mama used to say, can't ain't never done nothin

Originally Posted by Jughed

Are you doing the short intervals at or around 4-5 min VO2 max power, or all out power?

Originally Posted by PeteHski

377W actually, but why would you doubt that? It's good, but not exceptional. 95% of that figure for endurance power isn't going to happen for me on any "diet". If my endurance power was 95% of FTP I would be killing it and even that is an unrealistic goal. That would be 282W, which I can only hold for sub 2 hours. 95% of VO2 max would be a joke for pretty much all pro cyclists.

I'm not arguing about what those older elite marathon runners are doing. Just commenting that they must have a very narrow power band, which makes sense for marathon running.

Originally Posted by GhostRider62

Tommy Hughes at 91% of VO2 max for 2:27 at 60+
Ed Whitlock at 95% of VO2 max for 2:52 ish at 70+

Similar data are not well available for older cyclist, I hope to get closer to those figures

Originally Posted by Hermes

PeteHski I like your workouts a lot. I would not change a thing and keep doing what you are doing. However, a proviso...there is the 6 month cycle where one can achieve a peak and then there needs to be some kind of break. And at some point in time the VO2 stops working (at least for me). I am not sure why but Vo2 seems to act like some drugs. The drug is working and the patient is better and then boom, it stops working. Why? Sometimes one has to change it up. A fun way to do that is a training camp. Go for 4 ridiculously hard days of training someway in Europe. I like Mallorca.

Originally Posted by MoAlpha

I don’t think there’s any old guy boost unless you’re talking about the effect of additional years of training on aerobic metabolism. As I understand it, old athletes can go at a higher percentage of VO2max simply because their aerobic capacity doesn’t deteriorate at the same rate as their VO2max, i.e., there is a lower denominator in the fraction. My guess is you’re just training better.

Originally Posted by Jughed

Probably this. I have a big power band and relatively low V02/threshold power.

see it all the time on the Utube - people will have 1.5x the FTP and 60% of my peak power.

Everyone is different, and you can assume that top athletes in their respective fields, like marathon racers, are genetic freaks.

Originally Posted by PeteHski

This has been my experience too. At some point you hit a peak and then something has to give. Then it's very hard to push that ceiling upward in ever smaller increments. 3 steps back and 3.05 steps forward, lol.

So I do try to mix up my training quite a bit and take proper breaks after key events. I've been pretty consistent over the last 3 years and gradually getting stronger all-round. I'm only 55, so haven't hit the downward curve yet. I train more consistently now than I did in my 20's, 30's or 40's so I'm still gaining PRs along the way, even though my potential must have dropped away from those younger days.

Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy

That's about when I was strongest, maybe a couple years later. I started getting dropped when I was maybe 60, so I took up rando for a few years. I was still good at that. I trained (and train if possible) from October 1 to July 30, then I take a couple months off and do random fun stuff - backpacking, boating, a few group rides, nothing serious. Well, the 10-day backpack is sorta serious even though I take it easy. Knocks me right back. When I was your age, my wife and I would joke that we should go home, shower, resupply, and go back out because we were in good shape, finally. Not anymore!