tomato coupe

No reason to fix it if you read the whole sentence.

rosefarts

I haven’t spent the afternoon looking up wheels.

But off the top of my head, I think my Crests are 385g per rim and 23mm internal width.

They’re fine but nothing particularly special. So using them as a model, I would guess that there’s plenty of rims with internal width of 22-24mm that weigh about the same, approximately 400g.


Definitely sub 385g carbon rims exist. I think I’ve seen 250, so that is substantially lighter. Shopping around though, many seem to weigh what aluminum ones weigh, between 380 and 420g. With extremely similar internal width, though the external width is quite a bit more.

Most of the ones I’ve seen aren’t what I’d consider aero, sorta deep (40mm or so) with a slightly rounded surface.

For adventure type of riding, 10-15mph, on everything from pavement to “blue” MTB trails, I just don’t see the advantage.

Im not against carbon for racing, especially road. I also recognize some inherent advantages for a burly MTB wheel.

I think a lot of people equate carbon to lightweight without actually checking the weight.

tomato coupe

If you're comparing your aluminum wheels to 40mm deep carbon wheels that weigh the same, your question "are my aluminum wheels of a certain weight and cross section weaker/softer/less durable than a similarly spec’d carbon model?" doesn't really apply.

Chandne

I have been using carbon wheels for a long time...road, MTB, and gravel. For a long time, it was all I used. I can tell you a few things I have experienced. COMPLIANT carbon wheels are amazing since they are light and laterally pretty stiff. Many carbon wheels are harsh as heck, and I find my newer alloy wheels far nicer. I don't particularly like Specialized carbon wheels. ENVE and ZIPPs feel far better to me. I also think that if you want comfort, a well-built alloy wheelset is a better experience, and still light and fast, though not as fast or aero as deeper carbon wheels. If you race, you want light and aero so get some nice carbon wheels. If you don't race and are riding for fun, alloys like the DT411 are so comfy and not that heavy at all. In the MTB world, there are carbon wheels I avoid as well...Santa Cruz Reserve, We Are One Composites, and Specialized. I love Revel and Ibis wheels and still use alloy wheels on some bikes...super comfy. It is even more evident in the road bike and gravel world to me. I really have started to dislike harsh carbon wheels, but for a while, that was all I knew.

bbbean 

My favorite pet peeve. People act like there's a quantum leap between more mortals and racers, and ignore the fact that reduced rolling resistance, aero, weight, and other advantages are either present or they aren't. The fact that they are most noticeable at 40kph doesn't mean they aren't there at 20kph. You may not be riding in the TdF, but that doesn't mean you can't benefit from more efficient components, technique, and training. Would you like finish your daily exercise ride with 10% more energy?

downtube42

3x PBP finisher but sadly no races across the continent. OTOH maybe it's a good thing based on how I felt after 1500k at Natchez Trace.

Coast riding though, plenty of that down the Washington and Oregon coasts.

Rando, anything over 400k, is mostly about what's between your ears. If you get to the PBP start line, you have the fitness, and you likely have a reliable enough bike to get you to the finish. If the carbon wheels help the grey matter, then go for it. 10x more important than that: don't dork around at the controls. Also more important: stay on top of your fueling. Carbon aero lightweight shiny stuff doesn't do you a bit of good if you're standing in a line you shouldn't be standing in.

But seriously, if the carbon wheels provide enjoyment or motivation, that's gravy.

beng1

If you are interested in speed then the only way to go is to check out the rollingresistance website and see what the top tires are for your bike, those with the least rolling resistance. They list the top tires for road bikes, gravel, MTB and maybe some others. I am an old weak man so it is a waste of time for me to worry about having the fastest tires there are, but I did check the website out and found that for my 27" clincher road bike the tires with the least rolling resistance are the Continental UltraSport IIIs. So I bought a set because I found them on sale for $25 each, a recent Bday present to myself. I don't think there is a big enough difference between tubless, tubular or clincher to make a difference to anyone but a pro, so I would just buy whatever the fastest rolling tire is for whatever rims are already on my bike and be done with it. If I start to age backwards and civilization is still recognizable in 30 or 40 years I will do some pro racing and start worrying about what type of rim my sponsor will buy for me next.

shelbyfv

Would be useful if there was a way to highlight the posts of those with actual carbon wheel experience. Differentiate from the natterings of the rest of us.

chaadster

I feel what you’re getting at, but the problem is not a matter of experience, but of wrong-headed thinking. I mean, one needn’t be burned to know fire is hot.

No, the big problem is the misguided notion that aero benefits only manifest for pro racers, when in fact they are always present and acting on the bike and rider. There are those folks who like to pretend it doesn’t matter— maybe they have boundless energy, all the time in the world, no ambition, or are going to ride whatever distance whether it kills them or not— but the aerodynamic forces impact them even in their ignorance.

It was addressed upthread earlier by someone, the fact that the slower you go, the more time you save with aero wheel benefits, but let me add to that by dropping a chart from Flo wheels (their 2nd gen calculations from ‘22 which updated their groundbreaking ‘17 work) showing just that:

msu2001la

Interesting. I have Zipp 303S and don't notice any ride quality difference compared to the stock alloy wheels that came on my bike. The narrowest tires I run are 28mm tubeless at around 60psi, so the ride is plenty cushy. Any compliance from the rim seems to be just a tiny fraction of compliance that comes from the tire. I suppose this might be more of a factor on narrower tires at higher pressures? I also frequently swap the wheels (during the summer I run road tires on the Zipp and gravel on the alloys - during the fall I do the opposite, using the Zipps for CX racing and then the alloys for road) so I have a good sense of the differences. The thing I notice (aside from the sound they make) is the weight of the wheels. My alloy wheelset is a few hundred grams heavier and I can definitely feel this when accelerating. Once I'm up to speed there isn't much difference in terms of feel. I've tried to A/B ride data to spot aero gains, but there are too many variables at play.

I have noticed a big ride quality difference comparing carbon/aluminum frames and handlebars, but that's a different topic for a different thread.

Chandne

Alloy wheels are usually VERY comfy if not overbuilt or too deep.On my gravel bike, I had alloys and then swapped to the Specialized Terra CLs with the same tires and even lower PSI. They rode so harshly that I sold them after 3-4 rides. I put the alloys back on and all is well. The Zipps do tend to ride very smoothly and are rather compliant like a really good alloy wheel (but lighter and more aero). I have yet to ride a comfy alloy frame though.

terrymorse 

Light Bicycle's AR25 disc rim weighs 250 grams. Interior width is 24 mm. It's on my wish list.

Not actually checking the weight? Who are these savages?

My name is Terry, and I'm a weight weenie. I admit that i have a problem, but I would like leave this meeting early to search for some aluminum mounting bolts.

base2 

Holy crap.
So in order of weight:
We Are One Revive rims in 32, 28, 24 at $400 are 325 grams.
Stan's Grail CB7 rims in 28, 24 at $600 are 300 grams
Enve G23 rims in 24 only at $900 are also 300 grams
...and Light Bicycle AR25 rims are 250 grams in any spoke count you want with price unknown until order.

The non-aero carbon rim world is getting very interesting indeed...I'll see you at the next WW Anon meeting.

terrymorse 

AR25 rims are $259 -- $100 extra for lifetime warranty.

bblair

67 year-old, also a Lynskey rider. I have ordered a set of carbon wheels with the following completely objective criteria:

• I just wanted them.
• They look cool.
• Cheaper than a new bike! Or car.
• Wife is doing some kitchen remodeling and I felt left out.
• A friend had the same American Classic alloy rims and they wore out to the point that they folded in half. I have about 35,000 miles on mine and I am worried.
• That extra 2mph might give me the speed I need to win the sprint to the Porto-John.

Hermes

Come on Terry, man up and get these. https://lightweight.info/en/wheels/obermayer-evo. You know you want them.

Koyote

Do those wheels come with a divorce lawyer?

Lombard

No.

And if your normally have crosswinds, I would not go more aero than 30mm.

Lombard

The advantage to tubeless is they are less prone to pinch flats, period. In fact, tubeless tires need to have more rigid sidewalls and that will offset any weight difference of not having tubes.

Latex tubes are said to have a nicer ride, but at a cost and not just monetary. Latex is more porous than standard butyl tubes and therefore will lose air faster. Latex is also more fragile and prone to flatting.

As far as tires, it's a balancing act. The most puncture resistant road tire out there is probably the Maxxis ReFuse, however, it rides like a garden hose. Lighter, faster and more supple tires will ride nicer, but be more prone to punctures. I have found a good middle ground with the Vittoria Rubino Pros for my road bike and Panaracer GravelKing slicks for my gravel bike. Both of these are a great bang for the buck too. I get less than one flat per year with these.

Lombard

And all of these are perfectly good reasons to buy a new wheelset EXCEPT the last reason. No way you will gain 2mph.

terrymorse 

Of course I want them. But there's zero chance my purchase request will be approved by Upper Management.

Russ Roth

Been reading through this thread and finished building a set of wheels for my 10yo and now I want a set for myself just cause. 32h f/r wheelset with sapim 14/15 butted spokes, wheel fanatyk alloy nipples, king hubs and pub carbon rims in 27.5. The result is that I'm seriously jealous of my kid's wheels and want a pair for myself if only to have ones that look as cool has theirs, they weighed in at 1570g for the set. The wheels were just a dream to build, very little tweaking needed keep it straight. Usual method of lace and half tension before setting all the spokes on a side to same tension reading and finishing from there resulting in wheels that just wanted to be straight and round. Don't know if it'll help speed or handling, but the kid is begging me to go ride which I'd happily do if my knee wasn't in a brace atm for screwing up trying to help kids learn to ride.

GhostRider62

OP: note Downtube saying that if you qualify for PBP, wheels are sort of irrelevant and mental strength is a much bigger factor. That is very important point. Too many new randonneurs focus too much on gear and too little on riding (IMO)

Flo's data shows the advantages just for the wheels at zero yaw, if I am not mistaken. Often when riders upgrade wheels, they also upgrade tires. And, wind on the road is not so nice like a wind tunnel. It is far more turbulent with the front wheel air going from one state to the other, constantly stalling and then flowing nice. Boxed rims are far worse in dirty air (I could be wrong). So, in the real world in my opinion, Flo's data is conservative.

You will find all manner of bicycles on PBP (see below). There are 4 general groups of riders: Vedettes get 80 hours and go off first starting at 16:00 Sunday in waves of 300 riders (A, B, C, D, E), Specials (velomobiles, tandems, recumbents, and any other) get 90H and go off in Group F and then the Tourists (by far the largest) get 90H and then the Randonndeur category get 84 hours leaving in the morning. You will not see many slow bikes in the 80H groups and carbon rims are very common. In the 90H groups, aluminum box shaped rims with Marathon type tires are are relatively common and probably have little effect on whether someone finishes within the time limit.

Thus, you do not NEED better wheels. You do need resolve.

https://www.plattyjo.com/paris-brest...-the-bicycles/

ipernity: Sophie Matter meets streamliner. - by Alan Woods

bblair

Maybe I should have posted in the "Fit Over Fifty" forum.

But I'll let you know later today. Riding with a couple of guys in my age group who happen to have carbon wheels. If they beat me at anything, I will attribute it to the wheels. Soon: no excuse.

Lombard

And here is another good reason not to get high end carbon hoops. If their wheels are higher end than yours, when they make you eat their dust, you can always blame your equipment. Once you upgrade, then you have no more excuses.

^^^This.