MikeWMass

Under "other" I would put camber thrust (Camber thrust - Wikipedia)
Camber thrust is generated when the wheel leans toward the direction of the turn.
Than lean can be generated by countersteer or weight shifting.
On a 20 (or 50 or 80) pound bike, rider weight is enough to induce sufficient lead even when riding aggressively.
One a motorcycle weighing several hundred pounds, not so much (and even less as the weight increases)

Countersteer is actually applying pressure to the steering mechanism in the direction opposite to which you want to move. This leans the wheel in the direction of the turn due to gyroscopic force. In this video he leans the wheel (gyroscope) and it turns the platform, I could not find one where they turn the wheel and get lean induced, but it is just the reverse of what is shown.

3alarmer 

Bicycle dynamics, control and handling

...the most exhaustive research base on this topic of which I am currently aware. Enjoy.

3alarmer 

...there used to be a guy who showed up every year at the state fair with one of those bicycles modified with a double head tube and gearing so the bar turns opposite the wheel direction.
He would hire some cute young girl, and she would draw in the rubes (guys every one of them), with the promise of , "Ride it fifty feet, and win a hundred dollars !!" I think you paid five bucks for this opportunity.

That was a money maker and a half. There was always a line of guys, certain they could do it, and not at all dismayed as they watched everyone else fail.

Make a Reverse Steering Bike

rsbob 

An excellent description of countersteering a bicycle. Bike Gremlin

At speed, I will always lean into a turn initiating with very subtle steering input. Countersteeting appears to be a skill worth learning to be more precise when speedily descending.

Ironfish653

F=ma

Given that Motorcycles and bicycles are two wheeled, single-track vehicles, the relationship between the front and rear wheels (steering direction) and the deviation from vertical (lean) follows the same progression to initiate and hold a turn at a given, constant speed, on smooth dry pavement. If you break it down into a free-body diagram, there’s no difference; it’s two wheels, connected to a frame, pivoting at an angled head tube.
No magic difference, just stripped-down physics.

What does change, is the mass (m) a “typical” moto is 20-30 times heavier than a typical velo.

Given F=ma; to impart the same change in direction (a, as in acceleration) the force (F) that you, the rider, have to put into the controls (handlebars) is going to be much higher, due to the greatly increased mass of the system.

Also, too, where a moto may be 2~4 times the rider’s weight (mass) a velo is only 10%-15% of the rider’s weight; and requires proportionally less input force.

So, while the input force on a motorcycle handlebar may only be a couple pounds of pressure, it’s enough that you can feel it as a discrete effort, if you’re paying attention; on a bicycle, it is literally 1/100ths of what is called for on the moto, and so fleeting as to get lost in the background noise of riding a bike.

This completes my TED talk.

*post script: most motorcycles also have the grips in line with, or behind the steering axis (head tube) , which increases the tiller effect, and makes the “push away” input more pronounced than the forward-biased steering of a typical bicycle

Ironfish653

F=ma

Given that Motorcycles and bicycles are two wheeled, single-track vehicles, the relationship between the front and rear wheels (steering direction) and the deviation from vertical (lean) follows the same progression to initiate and hold a turn at a given, constant speed, on smooth dry pavement. If you break it down into a free-body diagram, there’s no difference; it’s two wheels, connected to a frame, pivoting at an angled head tube.
No magic difference, just stripped-down physics.

What does change, is the mass (m) a “typical” moto is 20-30 times heavier than a typical velo.

Given F=ma; to impart the same change in direction (a, as in acceleration) the force (F) that you, the rider, have to put into the controls (handlebars) is going to be much higher, due to the greatly increased mass of the system.

Also, too, where a moto may be 2~4 times the rider’s weight (mass) a velo is only 10%-15% of the rider’s weight; and requires proportionally less input force.

So, while the input force on a motorcycle handlebar may only be a couple pounds of pressure, it’s enough that you can feel it as a discrete effort, if you’re paying attention; on a bicycle, it is literally 1/100ths of what is called for on the moto, and so fleeting as to get lost in the background noise of riding a bike.

This completes my TED talk.

*post script: most motorcycles also have the grips in line with, or behind the steering axis (head tube) , which increases the tiller effect, and makes the “push away” inputs more pronounced than the forward-biased steering of a typical bicycle

tyrion

I say every intentional change of direction on a bicycle or motorcycle starts with a counter-steer. Might be minute, you usually don't think about it, but it's there.

pepperbelly

I agree. A bicycle is light enough that turns at higher speed can be performed by leaning alone. It just isn’t as precise. I wonder if the gyroscopic effect of the wheels fight the lean enough to matter.
A motorcycle can be leaned to turn but counter steering is much more effective on one.

raceboy

I’d vote for weight transfer as the way a bike steers. Handlebar inputs, body lean, braking are all tools a rider can use to control the steering.

CrimsonEclipse

Slow anticipated turn: Head movement, steering to control

Quick reaction turn: Counter steer, steering to control.

GhostRider62

I spent a lot of time looking at theoretical transfer functions of bike steering and stability. I think countersteering with your hands and weight positioning are two ways steering is initiated.

I can steer my bike with no hands on the handlebar by moving my Cg

What is instructive or fun is going from a very long wheelbase (55 inch) recumbent with a very low center of gravity and a very long trail to a short wheelbase upright with low trail.

DonkeyShow

Make bike go one way you go the other.

SkinGriz

Science is not a majority is right kind of thing.

pepperbelly

Don’t forget the Chuck Norris method.
Chuck Norris doesn’t steer the bicycle. He moves the Earth out of his way!

mpetry912 

the chapter on bicycle steering from the book "Bicycling Science" by Frank Whitt and David Gordon Wilson is the best treatment of this subject that I have seen.

Well worth a read and puts the lie to a bunch of speculation.

the section on the "unrideable bicycles" with small wheels and impossible fork rakes is especially interesting.

/markp

indyfabz

I’ve got chunks of guys like Chuck Norris in my stool. Just sayin’.

spelger

sounds unpleasant.

50PlusCycling

As a long time motorcyclist, I learned to make quick turns or “flicks,” you need to push between the inside bar and the opposite foot, that is, to make a right turn, push the right bar forward while pushing your left foot against the left foot peg, this will quickly drop the bide toward the right, and into the turn. You need to counter-steer to get into the turn, until you get into the right angle, then positive steering provides the countering force to keep the bike on its wheels. So, in my experience, you need to do a little of both.

indyfabz

I chew my food well, and I only eat the tender parts, like a grizzly does with salmon.

urbanknight

wheelreason in the former thread you said: and it kind of blew my mind because, after avoiding going "too short" in stems for decades, I finally went down to an 80mm on my road bike (even tried a 70mm for a bit) because of some fit issues, and the steering does not feel even a bit different. For years people have been telling me that too short of stem makes a bike too twitchy, and I believed it and even regurgitated it on that thread. Got put in my place and am reconsidering my position. So, would you say that even if I put a zero length stem on my normal road bike, steering would feel exactly the same (since rake, angle, and trail would go unchanged)? Obviously I wouldn't want to for fit reasons, but it certainly dispels the notion that steering characteristics should be considered at all when choosing stem length.

spelger

so you spit out the clothes, teeth, and bones. well then that's different.

Maelochs

Bicycles don't steer. Riders steer.

rsbob 

Cows don’t steer. Bulls steer.

Actually attempted some countersteering today on a long winding decent today. Have to admit the counter input was very conservative until I get the hang of it. Did it make a difference? Too early and maybe too conservative to tell but will keep at it.

GamblerGORD53

Go ride NO hands, the bike will SHOW you how to steer. LOL.
"Learning" counter steering is pure quackery IMO. ZERO people ever think about it, that's for sure. Whatever twitching happens, it's entirely the bike's doing.
I'm pretty sure what happens for me in turns at over 20 mph say, is I LEAN on the turn side grip and simultaneously LIFT the other grip, thereby the bike leans into the turn.
I also dumbly bought a Honda 400 =4 road bike in 1976. I doubt I rode more than 100 miles practice with my BIL, before I passed the test first try on HIS similar bike. LOL Mine was out of gas.
I drove it like my bicycle of course. I sure as hell did NOTHING but turn the bars the way I was going and maybe a little body lean. I only puttered 2,500 miles tho, with a few rides on the highway. I never did like it much, because my hands went numb.

urbanknight

Yep, I imagine you can't "learn" counter steering. You just naturally do it.