PeteHski

So how do you propose solving this fundamental problem? Hub gearing is an elegant solution because it totally avoids the problem of chainring size differentials.

Whenever I've dropped a chain [ever], it's always been the result of a FD shift. Even pros drop their chain on occasion when front shifting. It was a real issue on mountain bikes and probably one of the 2 main drivers for them to move almost exclusively to 1x. The other being 11 and 12-speed super wide-range cassettes and less need for a high top speed. All my mountain bikes since 2014 have been 1x and there's certainly no going back there!

I still tolerate a 2x drivetrain on my road bikes, but don't consider it an ideal solution having to switch between two overlapping gear ranges. To be fair I've only had 2 or 3 chain drops in the last couple of years over many thousands of miles, but still it's annoying and nobody really enjoys the awkward step change between front rings. We accept it for what it is.

seypat

It's not awkward for me. It's 1 shift. I'd rather do that than shift the rear 4 times, especially if I'm going to have to go right back where I was when I top the rise.

PeteHski

Often when you shift the front, you don't actually want to be shifting 4 gears at that point. It usually just means you've run out of range. That's why electronic drivetrains give you the option of compensating a front shift by shifting the rear mech at the same time to reduce the step change. Not that shifting 4 steps on the rear is any hardship with a modern drivetrain. Again you can program them to shift multiple gears with a long press. It's all pretty seamless, but you still notice the relatively clunky front shifts and there is always a small chance of dropping the chain.

If you really do prefer the idea of having less rear cogs and more front chainrings then I guess you are out of luck as the rest of the market is rapidly going the other way with virtually no chance of a U-turn at this point.

seypat

Your'e talking to people like they're all newbie riders. You don't think when I only want to shift 1 or 2 gears I don't shift the rear? I encounter lots of terrain where it changes enough quickly that 1 or 2 shifts of the rear are not enough. Maybe in the days of 2 or 3 tooth differences between rear cogs. But with 1 tooth differences a couple of shifts in the back gets you 2 teeth, not 4 or 6. That's not much when the terrain changes drastically. 1 or 2 front shifts and maybe 1 back works better for me. Then I can do the same when the terrain goes back where it was in the next 1/4 mile. Otherwise, I'm constantly shifting the back 5-6 shifts or more back and forth. I also know that I'm out of luck, but that's life.

Fredo76

What does this mean, other than "Ha-Ha! You're SOL, forever! Nyah, Nyah, Nyah!"?

tomato coupe

I think it means exactly what was written, i.e. the market is going in the other direction.

seypat

That's true. I like a lot of riders, have become semi hoarders. As long as 110/74 BCD chainrings are made, we can make it work. Same for 86 BCD. There are 130 cranks out there with holes drilled for an 86BCD 3rd ring. Or the 5 hole 86BCD cranks that can be most any combo of double/triple down to 26 or 28T.

Fredo76

The market is all over the place. We'll make do somehow.

https://www.theatlantic.com/photo/20...cycles/556268/

mstateglfr 

Please understand that 'the market' is referring to enthusiast bike shop level road bike brands in Western countries. 'The market' can refer to many things- MTB, utility, e-bike, upright transport style, etc etc. What you linked is not in the same market as what has been discussed in the thread.

PeteHski

Do you actually own a modern drivetrain? Genuine question.

Some people complain about the gaps between rear cogs being too wide with a 2x drivetrain and yet you claim they are too narrow? It's almost like you don't even know what you are talking about.

This is what a modern 2x road drivetrain actually looks like:-

https://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=...N=MPH&DV=speed

Carbonfiberboy 

I hope I have enough spare chainrings to last me the rest of my riding life. I also have spare 10-speed triple brifters. Cassettes don't seem to be running low. There was a bit of panic a few years ago over 39T 10-speed middle rings. I don't know where the market is on that right now, but it's a weak point. I did order that 24T ring I was talking about. I'll probably need it.

Ebikes are great transportation. I hope to never need one. I met a guy at the top of a pass last weekend who knows a 90 y.o. woman who still rides centuries. Centenarians are our fastest growing age group. He was probably in his early 30s. He mentioned how odd it seems that most of the endurance riders he knows are older folks. Seems to me we last a long time if we avoid injury. A section of the market might just come around to that idea. It doesn't seem like I'll live long enough to wear my bike out. It still rides like new. Epoxy/carbon laminate is amazing stuff. I've stripped off all that garish paint and ride it nude now. Looks quite modern except for the crankset.

Guttooth71

I'm Husky Fat and NEED a Granny gear!!

PeteHski

This says more about your attitude than mine. I was just stating how it is.

seypat

I own lots of bikes. Have tried 2X everything from 2x5 to 2x10 and 3x5 to 3x10. With a 110/74 or an 86BCD and 2 lengths of the same BB spindle, I can try out any gear combo I want. Always come back to the 3X. No 10 speed now. It wasn't adding anything to the mix. With a 3rd ring on front I can run a standard RD unless I want a 30t in the back. 52/40-42/30 and a 12-28 7speed is a hard combo to beat. 2 steps to the 18, 3 to the 24 and a 28. 8 speed just usually added a single step in the small gears. Same for 9 and 10 unless you want more on the low end. I do have a 11-34 9 speed cassette that is handy. The best part is 5/6 and some 7s for the 120 hubs. 126mm will handle 5-7 and 130 8-10. I could ride 10+ bikes with only 3 sets of wheels if I desired.

GhostRider62

I wouldn't consider 10 speed cassette with mechanical shifters modern.

11 Speed electronic has been around almost a decade and 12 speed electronic is on its 4th season.

I have everything from 5 speed on a Campy equipped 1972 Masi GC to triples on touring bikes, Mtb, and a tandem as well as 8 speed Sti, 10 speed Sti, 11 speed SRAM mechanical, 11 speed etap and 12 speed etap. The last two would be modern in my opinion. Of course, there are 13 speed out there too but I have not ridden them.

If you have not ridden modern systems, how can you denigrate them?

seypat

Now compare that to a 3X 8/9/10 with the same range and see which one you have to shift more to get to the 2 outer spaces on each end of your range. Or riding loops on 3 or 4 gears depending on the terrain without a lot of shifting. Make sure you include shifting the FD when you can. That's what's important to me. Single steps, not so much

PeteHski

How about this:-

https://www.gear-calculator.com/?GR=...24,28&UF2=2095

seypat

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the thread title is 3X drivetrain on road bikes. That's what I'm talking about. Lots of riders out there on 10 speed systems. Probably more than 11+. Not vintage yet. If you haven't ridden 13, you're behind the times.

seypat

Go ahead and put up 7, 8, 9 and 10. Still less shifts no matter which one you put up. Over an all day ride, that matters to me.

spelger

i don't propose anything, there is nothing wrong with FD shifting as far as i am concerned. i was only suggesting that by reducing the number of teeth that shifting might feel better. moving the rings closer probably will too but both of those things come at a cost. can shifting be improved? probably, but probably at the cost of shifting at the back end or performance. until i rode a 2x i was quite happy with a 3x. i now have a 2x and i like it. has a trim feature i read about but didn't know exactly what it was until i tried it. what's not to love about 2x? what's not to love about 3x?

and dropping chains? sure, have had it happen before. usually due to poor adjustments but more often (for me) it has happened in conjunction with a bumpy road surface, still a pretty rare thing though.

PeteHski

Rear shifting is delightfully slick and fast on a modern drivetrain (especially electronic). What matters is minimising the number of front shifts, which are less desirable. Like you I've ridden everything from 2x5 upwards and the modern drivetrains are the nicest to use. 100 mile hilly loop last weekend 753 rear shifts and 65 front shifts.

njkayaker

The rear derailleur "shoves the chain to the side" too (just like front derailleurs).

Because the "derailing" of the rear derailleur occurs on the non-tension side, it's a much gentler (less forceful) operation and allows delicate refinements like chain-slack take-up.

Early rear derailleurs didn't have pulleys. They worked much like front derailleurs. The purpose of the pulleys to take up chain slack.


The "track the sprocket sizes" thing is due to the "slant-parallelogram" (the pulleys are "along for the ride").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Derailleur

If you mean the derailleur movement on an angle, that it's the "slant parallelogram" (which came after pulleys).

???

No, he just used "cog" instead of "sprocket" (the word you happened to use).

What's the difference between "tracking the sprocket sizes" and "cog tracking"?

He provided the definition (which, since you removed it from the reply, you didn't think was important but complained about it's absence),

In any case, the pulleys are not what is providing the "tracking the sprocket sizing".

PeteHski

So your idea of a great drivetrain is to have large gaps at the rear and make big jumps on the front to minimise the number of shifts. mmm.... ok

mstateglfr 

Haha, what?!?! 10sp isnt modern? Tiagra is on carbon road bikes that cost $2500-2600 from major brands. Its on $1800 alloy frames. There is hydraulic braking, thru axles, carbon frames...but 10sp isnt modern?
10sp is not cutting edge. 10sp is not leading tech. But 10sp is very much modern and current.

This is a classic time to use the Inigo Montoya meme. "You keep using that word..."

https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ro...=293288-184477 $2600
https://www.specialized.com/us/en/ta...=293448-175300 $2500
https://www.cannondale.com/en-us/bik...-carbon-tiagra $2625

genejockey 

Interesting. I'm the opposite. I don't mind frequent shifting, though of course I mind it more on my C&V bikes with the DT shifters. My rides have a lot of gradient changes and I could no more ride them in 3 or 4 gears comfortably than I could fly.