Pedal_Inn

[QUOTE=Scooper;16601627]Here are a few photos of the frameset as received from Waterford.

Thanks for all the insight! It is really interesting to learn about the history of the frame, especially the campy dropouts.

Waterford does stunning work and is definitely the go to choice for painting the Paramount. The pinstriping is phenomenal! I have no doubt that the work they do is worth it. That said, I am hoping to keep the total build around $1000 with finishing (the frame was $200 Definitely agree that nuovo record could nicely round out the frame (though I do have a few sets of ISO tapped Stronglight cranks around, which I think are even nicer--). I am leaning towards plating to preserve the frame (until I can afford a proper painted finish) and have seen quotes in the $250 range for copper dipping. Of course I am concerned about getting a quality finish and understand the sensitive nature of the treating a bike frame. Does anyone have any insight on plating and know a reputable place that can copper plate a bike frame? Thanks in advance!

jeirvine 

Maybe have somebody else do the base coat and head tube, and have Waterford do the pinstriping/decals.
"1. Special Services - roll out dents and detail $125
2. Base Repaint - $600
3. Painted Head Tube - $120
4. Box Pinstriping - top tube, down tube, stays and fork blades - $250"

wrk101

Your bike, your choice. Me, with something this special and rare, I would limit any actions to ones that are easily reverse, so later I could do a complete restoration.

TugaDude

From WK101's previous post:

I am debating what to do with my 1973/1974 track frame set, which is common in comparison.

Bill, don't stress yourself out! Let it be someone elses problem...

wrk101

thats the debate right now. I sure don't need another keeper.

Kactus

As wrk101 said; it's your bike, your choice. But with a frame that is literally only one of a handful in existence, you could seriously damage not only its monetary value but its historical value by not restoring it correctly. Instead of spending $250 on plating that will forever alter the frame, only to cover it up at a later date, save that money and do the restoration correctly. To do otherwise would be like taking Eddie Merckx's world record breaking Colnago and making a fixie out of it!

You are fortunate enough to have been graced with a frame of considerable historical significance. If it's truly beyond your financial means to honor its history with a correct restoration, please consider selling it to someone who can afford it.

iab

[QUOTE=Pedal_Inn;16601805]Huh?

How does copper plating preserve the frame?

Copper oxidises, just like steel. If you want to preserve the frame from oxidation, go to the nearest auto body store. Spend $4 for some acetone to clean the frame, then spend $7 on some primer. $11. Boom.

John E

Cottered steel cranks were still common on high end bikes of that era. A nice set of Agratis (spider plus drive crank = single casting) with the 3-to-6-bolt Simplex adapters and a half-step pair of aluminum Simplex rings (I am very partial to 49-46) would be great, along with road quill pedals, Weinmann Vainqueur 999 centerpull brakes, high flange Campag. hubs, and Campag. Gran Sport derailleurs with a 14-24 or 14-26 freewheel and a Brooks Pro saddle. OK, I am biased -- that's pretty much the kit on Capo #2 , which I am trying to keep pretty original.

kunsunoke 

Corrosion Protection & Resistance: Clear organic finishes

The best approach (also the most expensive) is to use a fluoropolymer co-urethane clearcoat finish, preferably two-component for durability. Alternatively, one might accomplish the same thing through powder-coating a fluoropolymer clear coat. Best in show - Lumiflon FEVE Resins

Lower cost options would include two-component urethanes or acrylics with appropriate chelating agent / stabilizer packages (wet coating) or a suitable powder finish.

The copper plating step is multi-process. On a steel bicycle, I imagine it's pretty similar to the following:

1) caustic cleaning / water rinses
2) electric cleaning (if necessary)
3) multiple rinses
4) acid pickle (if necessary for descaling)
5) multiple rinses
6) cyanide copper strike bath
7) multiple rinses
8) copper sulfate plating bath
9) rinse
10) repeat from step 8 until final finish is achieved

It's pretty hard to find good plating shops anymore, but they are still out there.

Michael Angelo 

If you wanted to do this on the cheap, and still make it look good. I would go the automotive paint loaded in a Spray can route.

Touch Up Paint and Accessories | AutomotiveTouchup

Scooper

I never said it did. The OP's response is somehow shown as a quote from me.

iab

I understand it wasn't you and was the OP. Glitch in the software when I hit the reply with quote button. Same thing happened when Kactus did the same.

wrk101

+10 I would rather see a cheap rattle can job (ouch) than a semi-permanent copper plating. Save the coin and aggravation, and have something that can be easily removed if/when you decide to have it restored.

repechage

Scooper, that was a hefty price for the paint, but the box lining I think made it worth the cost, very nice. Not many can do that.

My suggestions would be as suggested earlier, pay for a report if Waterford has the records. It might just shed some light on the way to go. It will be interesting to reference what wheel size the frame was designed for.

I would go with Campagnolo derailleurs, Weinmann brakes, probably a Campagnolo seat post, Campagnolo High flange hubs.

For the crank... budget, function and luck will play a part.

Don't copper plate it.

If this is your one bike and money is tight, then I would get English threaded / sized parts where needed and transfer components from the PX, and spray just some protective coat for now.

Save for a good refinish.

One of the problems of getting the respray done will be that all that is not perfect with any components will stand out quite dramatically. I get the impression that this bike needs to be running soon. Go stealth for a while.

The Golden Boy 

Sometimes people quote- but cut off the end quote tag- that won't show as a quote- but when that post gets quoted, the whole post shows as a quote, usually with an orphaned end quote tag at the end.

crank_addict

OP- Given the budget and already confirming you've got the genuine article, don't sweat it. Get some paint on, build it and ride. You or someone else can always take it to the next level and correct to period restoration. The original paint, patina is gone so at this time its never going to be 100% original. Who cares? Get on it and enjoy. BTW: Scooper's is gorgeous, and with the Waterford heritage done right.

From what I gather and your budget. Take the frame to an automotive body shop and talk to a manager. When they have a car in the booth and priming, have them do the frame. Take your frame home and scuff, check for flaws, re-spot and final prep. White paint is commonly shot on cars so I would check with the shop manager if and when that would take place on a job. That's when you'd leave them the frame. A pretty paint laid on a bike is $100 to $150 tops.

From there on, decals, stripes, that's your call. Pro automotive, horse carriage striper can lay them on for $50.

For the build, find another bike with enough components to near what your seeking. Swap the parts.

The Golden Boy 

As harsh as that sounds- it's kind of right.

Pedal_Inn- I don't know if you actually understand what you have- Of course I have no way of knowing your thoughts- but I have a feeling you're seeing this more as a $200 cool old bike than a REALLY REALLY rare piece of history.

Of course, it's your bike, you do what you want with it- it's your property. HOWEVER, your property happens to be a REALLY REALLY rare piece of history.


I like old guitars. My favorites are Gibson Les Pauls. The "definitive" Les Pauls are the sunburst models made from 1958-1960. There were approximately 1712 made. There have been some that have sold for three-quarters-of-a-million-dollars. Some people like customizing their guitars to suit them. I have a few things that I like to do to my guitars that make them work better for me, but everything I do is pretty much entirely reversible. There is a WELL documented case of a guy that bought a 1959 Burst- he was left handed, so he cut into upper bout of the guitar to make a cutaway for himself. He bolted a kludged together vibrato to the top. He made contrasting control covers and a pickguard.

There are people that would saw off their own legs to own a Burst- and this guy did this to one:




Long after this guy passes away (or maybe he's already gone)- there's one less nice looking Burst in the world because of him.

iab

Period correct stuff - Campagnolo Gran Sport RD, FD and levers would run $100-$150. Low flange GS hubs on any box rim, another $150. Universal 51 brakes and levers, $100. Cottered crank & BB, Nervar?, $50. GB stem and bars $50-$100. Brooks B-17 with domed pin, $50.

Non-period stuff - tires, chain, tape, $100

$700. While not from Waterford, you can get good, single color paint for the remaining $300.

753proguy

I have #C66 in original paint and decals:



The base Paramount had no chrome, but you could pay for it as an option. My crankset was a steel cottered Stronglight Competition, but Campagnolo Record was an option by '59, so I upgraded to that.

Bar and stem are Titan.

Brakes are Weinmann center-pulls.

Pedals are early Campagnolo (Gran Sport).

Hubs are Campagnolo Record, rims are Weinmann tubulars.

Ders. are Gran Sport.

Edit: oops - that image is tiny. Let me re-try attaching it....

Scooper

That's really good info. Thanks.

jeirvine 

Pretty cool that two frames built probably a few days apart show up on the same thread 55 years later.

753proguy

OK, that image does enlargen if you click on it, it seems..

More details:

Seat post is Campagnolo Record 27.2 mm.. Tubing is Reynolds 531.

I think most parts are original, except for the crankset, the saddle, and the seat post. I received the bike sans saddle or post, so I guessed on those. Technically the post should be the early, steel one, but good luck finding one of those in 27.2

The Record group was almost complete by 1959, but not quite, so Record was the top-of-the-line stuff wherever applicable. Pedals were still named GS, but were soon to be re-named Record.

Q/R levers were closed-C and shift levers were open-C in '59, but were closed-C a year later. Record front derailleur wasn't released until 1960, so GS ders. were it (in '59).

The headset on mine is a no-name (Stronglight? other?).

753proguy

Mine is a 24" size, fwiw. Rides like a dream, all stretched out like that....

4Rings6Stars

But I am sure he enjoyed it. And that is all that matters...life is short, do what makes you happy, not some loonies on a vintage bike / guitar forum...


That being said, I think you should keep your alterations reversible if possible...

753proguy

I wonder if perhaps they were built on the same day (in a batch)? Maybe not, I guess, but there were probably quite a lot of Paramounts built in 1959, relatively-speaking??