mstateglfr 

On the road side its believed this will swallow Claris, Sora, and Tiagra. I get that is fun to crap on those levels of components, but modern Sora doesnt seem 'low end'. Its simply heavier, but still quite good quality. And Tiagra?...that is a GRX level component line(400)...its just odd to hear that is 'low end' or 'entry level'.
When did the 3rd(or even 4th if you add Tourney) level of something become 'low end'?


To me, A050 and Tourney is low end and thats about it. Everything else is just varying levels of refinement and weight. I fully refurbished a 4 year old Claris road bike a couple weeks ago and it was dead simple to set up and tune. The components are all doing well after thousands(probably 8000) of miles of use in dry and rain, as well as minimal between ride maintenance. Its just a bit heavier than my Ultegra- really thats it.
A Claris drivetrain(shift, brakes, crank, fd, rd, hubs, chain, cassette) is 600g heavier than a 105 5800 drivetrain. So 1.3 pounds.
I get that its low end and entry level, but boy did it set up easily, work perfectly after a lot of use already, and seem minimal in difference to a drivetrain 3 levels higher.

CAT7RDR

Who am I trying to fool?
As long as it works well and lasts, these are my two top criteria.
Saving grams when I can lose kilos is another story.
Tiagra/GRX 10 would have been my next choice on a new bike components choice.

Maelochs

Older Claris was only okay ... I had issues with front derailleur flex. I guess the updated version of all Shimano's road stuff is all pretty good .... and if 4700 Tiagra shares pull ratios with 11-speed (and 8 and 9) then it is possible Shimano won't bother with new road stuff ... or will focus on 105 and up, wireless, etc.

Of course, I have no clue.

The big gain here, as I see it, is that Shimano can shut down a lot of MTB production lines and just make CUES stuff, with the only cog-number-dependent parts being the shifters. Simplification is good of manufacturers.

They could do the same on the road side but none of their brifter designs are more than several years old, I think.

PeteHski

Just to be clear, I wasn't crapping on them. It's just that there are multiple levels above, so they are by definition lower-end groups. I just don't think very many people (outside of BF in the real world) are really that bothered about cross-compatibility at this level. I could be wrong, but I would be surprised. I do find the lower tier Shimano groups a confusing mess of random names, so I'm not surprised they are "unifying" them or whatever. That does make sense as do they really need to support 10 tier levels?

mstateglfr 

Yes, the current names can be confusing- especially on the mtb side since all 3 lower levels start with 'A' and have shared speeds(8sp, 9sp) with the other A level groups at multiple points in the last 20 years.

It sucks that the current stuff wont be compatible with this new ecosystem, but its really cool that this new ecosystem uses a single chain across all levels and the components call all play with one another. If you have an 11sp drivetrain, the shifter breaks and all the shop has is a 9sp shifter, that will still work for you in a pinch.
The very thing that cyccommute has complained about ad naus is available in this setup...but he is still unhappy.

freeranger

Being a senior, and not riding near as often as I used to, doubt I'll be buying a new bike with the new groupset in the future (or replacing mine with the new stuff). I don't fault Shimano for making the new groupsets all workable throughout the line. Just glad that a company such as Microshift will continue to make replacement components (at least I hope they do) for the older components. My wife's bike, and mine, used the old Tigara 4403 front derailleurs that were prone to breaking on the spring rest. Both of ours did. Replaced with Microshift R-539 and found it to be well made and works fine. Now, if bottom brackets could all subscribe to some kind of standard!! The sky isn't falling due to this change.

cyccommute 

It’s “ad nauseam”. But you and others keep missing the point. Shimano doesn’t get credit for putting things back the way they were because they broke the system to begin with. It’s great that they are getting around to fixing the problem but they created the problem.

And, no, a 9 speed shifter will not work in a pinch for an 11 speed shifter. Not even close. A 9 speed shifter doesn’t work well for an 8 speed cassette and a 10 speed won’t work with a 9 speed at all…especially in the mountain bike line. Friction probably won’t work either.

Not that many shops are going to have a 9 speed shifter of any kind in stock.

georges1

I totally agree with you.

Maelochs

Shimano didn't "break" anything. It designs what it thinks are good to sell (i.e. people will buy) and it designs, builds, and sells those things. Anf people do buy them.

Shimano never did, is not, and never will "screw" anybody.

You guys really thinks Shimano execs or product designers care about the few customers who use their parts in ways not designed? Either to help or hinder? Uh .... No.

All of you are screwing me by not sending me your paychecks, by that logic ... because, darn it, I am Entitled ......

georges1

Well I have a 1992 Giant Tourer Hybrid equipped with 21 speeds Shimano Altus A10 C10 transmission,I have never had a single issue with it. I never found the necessity to upgrade it because it was already working very well.I upgraded one MTB and made 2 other MTB builds with XT780T 30 speeds groupset, I am currently making a 4th MTB build with the XT780T 30 speeds groupset. Aesthetically , I find the Shimano Cues group ugly, and it doesn't propose triple cranks and I don't think quality is on par with XT stuff and shifting from Cues are maybe designed to work with disc brakes only. As I don't do disc brakes, I will buy spare XT T8000 shifters which are 10 speed shifters designed for vbrake and mechnical disc brakes. Once a product is phased out, don't expect bikeshops to have some spares parts for 7,8,9 and 10 speeds groupsets so buy and stockpile from ebay as much spare parts that you need.

harrier6

After thinking about this for a couple days, I feel like the "cross compatibility" of Cues kind of misses the point of maintaining 8, 9, 10 speed parts. All else being equal, more speeds is always better, but people still choose to use 9 speed because, for example, you can mix MTB and road parts easier than you can with 10, 11, 12. That's the trade-off more or less. With Cues – assuming they release road brifters and all that – I see little reason anyone would want to choose 9 or 10 speed over 11. At that point, just kill off the 9 and 10 speed. You're left with what's really important – an ecosystem of components that you can mix and match to make drop bar MTBs, flat bar road bikes, gravel, etc etc.

Maelochs

I dispute this as a matter of sound business practice.

Almost Everyone who gets a bike with fewer gears does it to buy a cheaper bike. A Very Few people try to mix-and match ... particularly among the lower groups, where people are buying lower-tier groups on cheaper bikes, they are buy entry-level bikes as first bikes, or because they know they don't need all the bells and whistles, and those customers are Not swapping and mix-matching drive train parts---most of them probably would have to work hard to change a tube.

For a business, catering the the tenth of a percent which does things you advise agaisnt, makes no sense.

And to be clear--Shimano is not doing this for the customers, anyway. Shimano can clean up its production facilities and parts storage, simplify the whole system.

Of course, we as customers will benefit because the simpler manufacturing, storage, and shipping procedures help keep costs down.

himespau 

Sure we will.

Prices will stay the same or go up and shareholders will benefit.

smd4

Does Shimano even have shareholders?

harrier6

I'd be curious to know how much Cues 9 speed actually saves them over 11. I read somewhere that 10+ speed parts are more expensive because as chains and cassettes get thinner, they require tighter manufacturing tolerances and clever machining to support thinner sprockets and all of that. With old 8 speed you might have just been able to stamp it out and call it a day, nice and cheap. Since Cues is supposed to use 11 speed chains and all of that across the line, it seems like the difference in cost between Cues 9 and Cues 11 would be a lot less than in the past. You can still differentiate by making a low-end derailleur with more plastic parts.

Though you are right I think, marketing may be the larger reason for it. It's really easy for a normal person to look at a bike with 11 speeds and see that it's better than the one with 9. Lose that and you've at the very least made the salesperson's job a lot harder.

Oldbill

I am old school and tour on a friction 3x6 so this won't really affect me.
It will affect LBS severely. Imagine selling this year's bikes knowing the components used on them are being phased out and customers may not be able to get parts.
Also the LBS will have to TRY to stock double the parts for at least 3 years during the changeover ( unless they want to tick off their existing clientele).
With the current economic climate many more LBS may close.
The change is good for people that enjoy new technology and are willing to pay every few years as it changes. It is a marketing system perfected by cell phone manufacturers and people are getting used to the constant change.
It is also good for Shimano's bottom line as it provides a more stable "turnover" of parts and components. Do you think they make more money on a replacement 7 speed cassette or an 11 speed cassette?

It is fascinating. I will sit back with my popcorn and watch.

HTupolev

Yes. They're publicly traded, 7309 on Tokyo Stock Exchange.

mstateglfr 

Yes, I am well aware what the full term is. 'Ad naus' is, in my world, a well known shorthand. Apologies if it was confusing to you and you had to Google it or something to figure out what I was saying.

The new system will have equal spacing for all cogs. So a 9sp shifter would work with an 11sp cassette. Or a 10sp shifter would work with a 9sp cassette.

^ this is based on what has been reported in articles and podcasts.

smd4

Interesting. Thanks.

Maelochs

Hello! I come from that mystical mysterious world, the actual present time, which we call, for convenience, "Reality."

In this world, businesses which do not make money go broke, and then no one can buy their parts at any price. Or, if they fail to make sufficient profit, some lame loser buys them, cuts them up, tears them down, capitalizes on the name and sells pure junk until no one will touch their stuff. Result---no one can use their products.

Anyone here wants to design , manufacture, and sell at a competitive price the "perfect" component line, I will use that source in the future (which will then be the present. It's tricky, I know.)

Otherwise ... I will continue to avail myself of the fine Shimano lines of bicycle parts, and occasionally patronize their semi-knock-off competition like Microshift, all readily available here in reality.

I know it is impossible to imagine in the worlds in which you folks live ... but here in actual reality it is possible to ride a bike, build a bike, repair a bike .... and in fact, it is all pretty simple and straightforward.

I feel so sorry for all you you who apparently have been prevented by that evil corporation Shimano from riding bicycles for over a decade. I hope someday you can find your way to my world, actual reality, where bikes and parts are plentiful.

Maelochs

And for those of you who cannot make your 11-speed brifters work with your XT derailleurs /.... trust me, hundreds of thousands of starving people who pick through trash heaps for food and drink out of filthy puddles are crying for you.

smd4

I agree! What a bunch of 1st world babies we are, talking about bikes on a bike forum! How dare we?

rudypyatt

Just coming back to this thread. As I understand the press announcements, CUES is replacing the lower end MTB groups, and will also have application for other flatbar bikes like hybrids. As far as I can tell, Shimano has NOT announced the end of Claris, Sora, and Tourney (for that matter, A050).

I have a feeling that Shimano won’t get rid of these groups, at least not all of them. There still are entry level road bikes running them, and people buy those bikes. I’m admittedly drawn to older tech because I don’t live and ride in a mountainous area and I don’t race; if I ever get a derailleur bike, I’ll have utterly no use for 11 or 12 speed cassettes. Tourney or Claris would serve just fine, and I suspect I am not unique in that use case. For that reason, I don’t think Shimano will just abandon that end of the market to Microshift and others.

Cues could be a good solution for road bikes as well as MTB, gravel, and hybrid, but (like higher end road groups), might be overkill for some applications.

A related question, touched on up thread: Are Claris, Tourney, and Sora actually bad? I know they’re heavier than the higher level stuff, but I’ve seen a lot of threads over the years really scorning bikes equipped with these groups. My impression of Shimano is that all their groups function well. Why all the negativity towards their lower tier groups?

Mind you, I don’t really have skin in the game (yet). I haven’t regularly ridden a derailleur bike since I was 15, a Sears Free Spirit with a 2x5 and a Shimano Eagle RD that I now realize was never properly adjusted. Department store bikes then and now really have to get the once over at an LBS, but I didn’t know that then. As an adult, I’ve stuck with single speeds and three speeds (Sturmey-Archer).

ARider2

No, they’re not that bad, some folks are just gruppo snobs!

Maelochs

They weren't so good. After the latest round of updates, I'd say everything down to Claris is quite good, .... I haven't tried Tourney do I cannot say.

The older groups had flexy plastic derailleurs which could be annoying .... and otherwise were just less refined and heavier. As of today, I think Claris and Sora are top-rate groups.

However, 105 and Ultegra feel better to me, by direct and personal comparison. They do everything just a little better, with a more pleasant feel and quicker responses .... but that could be my perception only.

As far as not needing more gears .... it has nothing to do with "mountainous areas," because they all can be had withe the same highest and lowest gearing. The difference is fine-tuning the mechanical advantage to your optimal cadence and the existing conditions.

Anyone who has hauled a big load on a long day, or headed into a relentless wind, or hauled a big load into a relentless wind ... ... probably knows the feeling when you find just the right gear so that you are not mashing, nor spinning, when your body is just about over it all but you aren't there yet and have to keep going.

The same thing happens to a lesser degree to me because I am weak. You strong riders can muscle and mash and make any gear work, even single-speeds, but my body says "No" quite emphatically. I click up and down between ratios over the slightest change in incline or wind, because I enjoy riding but not getting tired a the start of a ride.

So, no Shimano's lower road groups, at least Claris and Sora, are absolutely solid. That doesn't mean 105 is overkill.

Each has an opinion. This is merely mine.

As far as the MTB groups, Deore or LX or whatever was really solid. I tried whichever was the lowest, Alivio or Arcera? And found it unreliable and too flexy and took it off. I will not mourn those lower groups.