Camilo

I agree with you on that. And it does seem that for some reason, 20mph seems to be a benchmark to be considered as a bicycle that I've seen. But the reality is that very FEW bicyclists average anywhere the low 20s on the terrain that a typical MUP is (flat-ish, easy rolling hills). Low 20s is very fast on a bike on flat ground and not compatible with MUPs IMHO. Sure there are lots of people that can do that, but they are serious, fit bicyclists. Average recreational cyclists, even fairly fit ones, maybe hit 15 for any length of time, and the average casual cyclist is lucky to go 10. The cyclists that can go 20+ generally (NOT ALWAYS) are very experienced and savvy enough to avoid doing that among other MUP users. The novice that gets on an ebike that can go 20 is going a lot faster than general MUP users and most likely doesn't have the sense or ability to do so.

I don't know what the solution is. 20 mph is a good speed if one is commuting, or utility riding.And it's OK on an empty or little-used MUP with good sight lines and riders with sense enough to slow down when it's not appropriate. I do pedal 20 or so in those conditions. But to consider them the same as bicycles and allow them carte-blanche on an MUP, I dunno.

Camilo

Yeah, there's a tendency these days to consider any critique of things to be "hate". And I haven't seen any irrational comments, but I guess if one disagrees with someone else, it's irrational hate.

john m flores 

"A total of 961 bicyclists were killed in crashes with motor vehicles in 2021."

https://www.iihs.org/topics/fatality-statistics/detail/bicyclists"The spate of cyclist killings began shortly after the new year when a cement truck driver ran down and killed 62-year-old local Tamara Chuchi Kao. The driver was not charged.

The bloodshed also includes crashes in residential areas and busy commercial strips:

•  
  • Brooklyn mom Sarah Schick was killed 10 days into the new year when a trucker ran her over as she rode a Citi Bike. The mother-of-two died on an industrial stretch of Ninth Street where DOT had opted not to extend a protected bike lane. After activists held a “die-in,” the DOT said it would redesign the stretch, but the truck driver has not been charged.
  • Cyclist James Giambalvo was killed on a quiet street in Staten Island in February. His killer has not been brought to justice.
  • A hit-and-run driver hit delivery worker Hua Pan on April 5 in The Bronx. That driver has not been caught."

https://nyc.streetsblog.org/2023/04/...months-of-2023

Troul 

the ever so predominant E-bikes will likely cause all "bicycles" to undergo legal scrutiny of some sort; road laws, civil laws, & relative insurance policies.

bikelif3

Electric motor powered? Max speed over 20mph? ILLEGAL to be on the trail I ride

Troul 

yet, it's hardly enforced with a citation.

spelger

what is the relevance of this post in this thread?

bikelif3

Unless I call 911, and follow that person until law enforcement arrives

Troul 

have fun with that later part. it would likely not have a desirable outcome in my local hood.

3alarmer 

.
...this discussion went downhill faster than an e-bike with the governor disabled.

bikelif3

NO SERIOUSLY, there is ACTUAL senseless violence in this and your world...

shelbyfv

Now we're rolling! Welcome back. Again.

bikelif3

Stop creepily focusing on me and at least attempt to post something that moves the thread forward...

Maelochs

"While persons injured using E-bikes were more likely to suffer internal injuries (17.1%; 95% CI 5.6 to 28.6) and require hospital admission (OR=2.8, 95% CI 1.3 to 6.1), powered scooter injuries were nearly three times more likely to result in a diagnosis of concussion (3% of scooter injuries vs 0.5% of E-bike injuries). E-bike-related injuries were also more than three times more likely to involve a collision with a pedestrian than either pedal bicycles (OR=3.3, 95% CI 0.5 to 23.6) or powered scooters (OR=3.3, 95% CI 0.3 to 32.9), but there was no evidence that powered scooters were more likely than bicycles to be involved in a collision with a pedestrian (OR=1.0, 95% CI 0.3 to 3.1). While population-based rates of pedal bicycle-related injuries have been decreasing, particularly among children, reported E-bike injuries have been increasing dramatically particularly among older persons.

"Conclusions: E-bike and powered scooter use and injury patterns differ from more traditional pedal operated bicycles. Efforts to address injury prevention and control are warranted, and further studies examining demographics and hospital resource utilisation are necessary."

So the issue with e-bikes (assuming we use this as evidence) is that older people on e-bikes are the real threat---not young kids getting crazy. {"While population-based rates of pedal bicycle-related injuries have been decreasing, particularly among children, reported E-bike injuries have been increasing dramatically particularly among older persons."}

So ... does this mean fewer children are riding pedal bikes? Or that more kids are riding e-bikes but n0t pedal bikes, and are not crashing? Or are kids learning how to ride pedal bikes at an earlier age and thus having fewer accidents, while old people are not able to learn how to ride e-bikes.

Also the earlier study said the old people were more likely to have abrasions ... and this one says that "powered scooter" accidents are more likely to cause concussions. So ... are the old people on e-bikes hitting pedestrians at low speeds and falling over, causing abrasions?

As far as speed is concerned, as I keep saying every MUP and every public road has a posted speed limit. Whether they are enforced has nothing to do with whether a person pedals or does not pedal a bike.

As far as Force=Mass*acceleration ... yes, and the person was trying to concoct some ridiculous formula to limit how fat a person could ride what sort of bike.

If you cannot tell a bad idea when it screams at you, you should become a politician and write regulations ... judging by a lot of the laws and rules in place, they were written by people who similarly could not recognize bad ideas.

I never said mass times acceleration did not equal force. if you read that, go back and read again. if you are pretending that, in order to win an argument, go learn honesty.

Anyway ... carry on with your e-bike-of-doom nightmares. Not sure why you're so invested ... sorry if an e-bike touched you inappropriately.

rsbob 

I could swear that I had an innocuous post on this thread about e-bikers needing to be schooled on being civil and having pedal assisted e-bikes and e-bikes that don’t require pedaling which can travel faster than 20 MPH requiring licensing. Went on to say my wife has a pedal-assist e-bike so I have no issue with them in general. Must be losing my cranium.

GamblerGORD53

Face the facts. We are outnumbered 20 to 1 by FLBs. They are NOT out for exercise. We'll be lucky if we can still buy an actual bike in 8 years.
I went for another 96 mile ride with ZERO other bikes on the highways. Back in the hipster zone, E bikes and pogo stick scooters are thicker than flies and dog walkers. Worse yet is these people have the same respect for us as we have for them .... ZERO.
They are clueless maniacs.
Rental bikes are 90%+ of the bike traffic in China now. Likely getting close in places like NYC.
LINUS has more E bikes than normal ones.

Maelochs

[QUOTE=rsbob;22983707]I could swear that I had an innocuous post on this thread about e-bikers needing to be schooled on being civil ... V Well, according to the "science" posted here, it is actually old folks who are ramming pedestrians with their e-bikes .... go figure. (Of course, that study spans 17 years, so it might not at all reflect the surge in e-bike popularity in the past few years. You just cannot count on Science.)

The issue, I maintain, is the rider, not the bike. As far as that goes, Most people need schooling on being civil, IMO. My next question, How do you teach people not to be buttholes? I mean ... these are not new ideas. Again I liken it to murder statutes. Even without laws most people can see that killing other people is not good ... yet people still do it. I would welcome a program which successfully taught people to be civil.

The 20 mph limit .... arbitrary but one must start somewhere. The issue would be industry push-back--Can you prove that people who have to pedal to achiever 28 mph are more safe than people who don't? If not you are artificially restricting trade. This then calls for more "science," but a major issue with "science" is funding .... One would need to track e-bike sales, but how to track miles? How many accidents are not reported, and how many are reported but the perpetrator escapes on his pedal bike ( )? How do you judge the cause of accidents and the intent of the people involved? It is very hard to conduct studies of real life, and it is impossible to recreate real life accurately for certain studies.

I agree that at some point, as with mopeds and mini-bikes, some sort of speed or power restriction might be needed,. power restrictions are usually easier to enforce, because speed can vary by rider weight, aero efficiency, etc, but power can be set at the factory and the factory can be held liable unless the machine is tampered with, which could also be made a crime (sad, that .... )

In any case, the answer is not to write new regulation, but to include e-bikes above a certain power rating in a class with similarly-powerful two-wheeled transport.

Hint: If people want this to happen, you will need a broader coalition. Go to your local MUP every weekend for a couple months and hand out flyers, create a website, get mothers' groups involved, talk at PTA meetings ..... On a local level, a small group of dedicated activists can spread ideas (good and bad) and get action on that level ... and that is where it would need to start ... and please go to the school board and get them to teach children decency and respect. Kids obviously aren't learning it at home ...

No, I read that and understood it. However, you are only one poster.

Maybe so ... did you expect calm and rational discussion just because you are being calm and rational? This is Bike Forum, my good person, where if you disagree with me twice I must attack you for certainly disagreeing with me is an attack upon me, right? And where threads have their own wills and desires .......

I cannot say what this thread wants ... beyond saying it wants for calm, rational discussion, but that is a play on different meanings of "want" and i don't want to twist anyone's knickers by twisting language, fun as both can be.

I can say that ai agree some regulation might be needed, but the only place it can be enforced is on the manufacturers .... unless you can calmly and rationally explain how to police every bike lane and MUP. Right now, we cannot even police the major vehicle routes ... I have seen, twice in one week, a car trying to pass me run another car completely off the road .... what can be done? By the time it was over, it was over, and no one had time to whip out a cell phone and video the incident, not write down license plates ... everyone was busy avoiding or escaping.

The other issue I have with regulation is well ... regulation. Rules get more restrictive and everyone runs afoul of them more often ... yet behavior does not improve. What happens is that people who are not the problem get ticketed.

Seriously ... it has been proposed before that pedal bikes be registered. (https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...w-of-road-laws , https://www.citizen-times.com/story/...es/3083902002/) and in some municipalities it is already a fact: https://moco360.media/2019/12/20/is-...-its-required/

We need to be careful ... the knee-jerk call for "More regulation" as do so many things, often brings unintended side affects.

Can you imagine needing a plate and insurance for each of your bikes? The only reason we don't have it (insurance companies sure want it) is because municipal tax bases don't support it.

Anyway ... don't worry ... your post is getting read, it just doesn't have a zippy enough click-bait headline and the controversial lede needed to get traction on social media. Reason is passé ... you need to get some references to some Kardashian in there, or maybe Taylor Swift ... or "woke." Then people would respond.

SoSmellyAir

So much to unpack here. Let me give it a shot.

We cannot. But presumably the old ladies are still going at least as fast as pedestrians on the MUPs, so the old ladies are not causing a speed differential issue.

The people riding at 25 mph under their own power -- whether solo or in a group -- had to work their way up to 25 mph, and so are more likely to have the bike handling skills to ride at 25 mph. Not so for most e-bikers I have seen in my area.

The MUPs in my area have no posted speed limits, and whatever rules are posted are almost never enforced. I am all for reckless cyclists -- whatever their power source -- learning the hard way as long as they only hurt themselves in the process.

I have seen e-bikes clip pedestrians or other cyclists.

No, it is the other way; both you and I are fat, and therefore (already) go more slowly.

I am not proposing a maximum momentum regulation. I am merely pointing out that the ease at which most e-bikes hit >> 20 mph allow many untrained cyclists to create or cause dangers in an environment that was never designed for such high speeds.

Motor vehicle regulations are not a panacea. But at least there is (generally) more enforcement of those regulations, insurance, and both criminal and civil liability.

You should have taught them a lesson so (as discussed above) they learn the hard way? Just kidding.

I am not saying that all pedal cyclists are law-abiding citizens. But (at least in my area) there is no clamor to further regulate them. Whereas, there is such clamor when it comes to e-bikes, not from cyclists, but mostly from pedestrians and drivers.

Maelochs

We have met the enemy and .....

Maelochs

Not too bad a shot.
If this is indeed the case, all the more reason for me not to get involved. The people who have a voice (by dint of numbers and financial contribution) are already on it.

@rsbob has already discussed some sort of restraint ... I recommend it be based on vehicle power as delivered from the factory. I do not trust most people to devise sensible regulations .... shoot some folks wanted to regulate bikes based on momentum .......

Anyway ... you haven't mentioned a Kardashian or used the term "woke." How do you expect to get any responses?

Leisesturm

Do you? Serious multi-car accidents here will NOT receive a police response unless there are injuries. Even calling the non-emergency line will get you cited if you try to bring police to the scene of ... nothing. Let's get a grip. A speeding e-biker is not what you should be getting the knickers in a wad over.

SoSmellyAir

Where do you live? I would like to come visit with my supercar to satisfy my need for speed. Afterwards, I will park it at my hotel and take an Uber to your local pub to buy us each a beer.

Leisesturm

I live at Ground Zero for the most bike aware city in the U.S. Apparently no longer the most bike friendly city, we lost that title years ago. But even if I am feeling excitable, about the best I can come up with is that it is the e-bikes that are outnumbered by pedal bikes 4:1. That doesn't count the stand up scooters and powered skateboards, mono-wheels, etc.

But the fact is even a cheap e-bike costs some dough. A cheap mono-wheel is $500. A good one is $1000. Those prices keep the dilettantes away from e-power in huge numbers. Given that I live where more people ride bikes IN THE STREET than anywhere else in the country and most days I am likely to see less than 10 to 15 cyclists total! I just don't know where all this emotion is coming from. Cyclists are a tiny minority of the transportation world. If you are worried about e-bikes on the MUP you are doing it wrong. What the eff are you doing on the MUP in the first place?! Scared of cars? So you want to scare peds? I wouldn't know what goes on on MUP's because I don't ride on them. I suspect there are equal numbers of pedal bikes and e-bikes on MUP's and pedestrians hate both.

zandoval 

It's pretty simple...

A bicycle with a motor is called a motorcycle.

motorcycle - mō′tər-sī″kəl -noun

1. A two-wheeled motor vehicle resembling a heavy bicycle, sometimes having two saddles and a sidecar with a third wheel.
2. A bicycle or tricycle operated by some form of motor as well as by pedals.
3. A two-wheeled vehicle having a motor attached so as to be self-propelled.

But don't get me wrong... I love motorcycles. I just don't confuse them with bicycles. Got my first motorcycle at 11. It was a 1953 Cushman Highlander. Never could keep it running. 50 years latter my Mom admitted to sneaking water into the gas tank to keep me off of it...

3alarmer 

...yes, that's what it says. It's the very information that you requested earlier. You're welcome.

https://www.bikeforums.net/22983614-post75.html

...as has already been pointed out several times, 15mph speed limits are more or less self enforcing, for the majority of conventional cyclists. That we would now require increased enforcement resources has everything to do with pedaling versus electric motor power. That you would again throw this into the discussion demonstrates you are either not paying attention, or are simply making this up as you go along. Increased enforcement resources would not be required, were these new two wheeled vehicles regulated at the manufacturing and sales level.

Why is the solution to a free America "increased enforcement", rather than saner marketing and vehicle regulation ? I would suggest to you, it's because you know that this increased enforcement is impossible, given current resource limits to accomplish it.

...I'm not doing that. I'm only pointing out (as have many in the field of medicine and injury analysis), That as speeds increase, and vehicle weights increase, there's a direct correlation with the significance of injuries experienced by participants in collisions. It seems to carry over from cars and trucks, where it's very well documented, to e-bikes, in this case. It probably holds true in roller skating, as well, but I can't point you to a study.

..."Always assume the moral high ground, as your first step in any discussion." --Maelochs

...not the first time you have, when confronted with facts that do not fit your model, accused me of dishonesty.
I have honestly never seen you engage in good faith discussion in the general cycling forum. So color me unsurprised.

The cognitive dissonance exhibited here is only matched by your garrulous writing style. And ad hominem attack is not a style, it's a logical fallacy.