urbanknight

While being entertained with the rehashed chemist vs non-chemist argument, it got me thinking. With all this talk about how crummy the coating is on new chains, how many of you would be more likely to choose a chain that came dipped in paraffin instead? Is that something manufacturers could offer?

jaxgtr

you can get them, but they are stupid expensive compared to the small time needed to strip the grease and wax it yourself, so I would say no.

Russ Roth

Same chain with same cost, sure. Cost a couple bucks extra, maybe depending on the current budget and how much I'm spending on other things. More than a couple bucks more and I'm cheaper than I am lazy.

soyabean

I don't forsee any manufacturers doing this because it's just not popular enough to the masses, so it'll remain something for the shops to do for resale hence the desired profit from the labor involved.

Trakhak

The results from tests seem to be unequivocal---waxed chains stay cleaner and work better. I hate the idea of deviating from my decades-long chain lubing techniques, so I find the facts a bit annoying, but the numbers don't lie.

If I ran a company that manufactured bike chains, I'd be having some market analyses done right now to determine whether the cost of setting up a production line for waxing chains would be offset by significantly increased market share. Might not even cost very much to switch from the coatings used presently, so here's hoping that some manufacturer will go all in soon.

dedhed

Mass production doesn't lend itself to cost effective low volume specialized options.

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staehpj1

For someone who wants to wax it isn't a big deal to wax one. For someone who doesn't it is a pain to remove the wax, assuming they don't want to mix lube types. Personally I don't see it as much added value even for someone who wants to wax.

JohnDThompson 

Silca beat you to it:

https://silca.cc/collections/chain-l...xed-race-chain

pdlamb

So would I pay another $60 to get a pre-waxed chain? Er, nope!

cyccommute 

Honestly there is no reason why they should be expensive at all, certainly not around $50 more. The Dura Ace chain above costs $100 for a $50 chain.

A note on the video on “How it’s made” video. Something that bugs us chemists is the constant misuse of chemical terms. The video says the chain is dipped in “hot oil” and that wiper wipe off the “excess grease”. Both are wrong characterization based on what is on the chain when it comes out of the box for the consumer. “Oil” implies a low viscosity fluid. Pools of oil should be found in the bottom of whatever container that the chain comes in. There would also be no need to heat an oil for the dip during construction process.

Pools of oil in the chain box doesn’t happen. The “grease” coming off the chain is a soft solid. Or, in other words, a wax, albeit a soft wax. A “wax” is related to oil chemically but just isn’t fluid. A wax would need to be heated to make it possible to apply it to a chain. A wax doesn’t flow off the chain in the box. Finally, although I don’t have the information right at hand, years of looking into this subject have lead me to commercial products sold by companies for use in chain manufacturing. The commercial product is sold as a wax, not an oil.

Finally, prewaxed chains using hard wax like the Silca product are pretty silly. The consumer is paying $50 for a treatment that lasts a few hundred miles at best. The soft wax used on a chain lasts a few hundred miles at best. Perhaps the Silca chain has undergone the elaborate cleaning process that wax advocates declare is absolutely necessary but that whole argument is based on flawed assumptions.

Polaris OBark

No.

Even if it was the same price, I would not trust anyone else to do it.

(Full disclosure: I am yet another chemist.)

More seriously, the packing grease is formulated for long shelf live to keep the chain from oxidizing, not as an ideal lubricant.

seypat

It would probably be good for Jimmy Buffet fans.

cyccommute 

I’ve used wax…solvent wax…for decades and I don’t disagree that they are cleaner. I’m not so sure about working “better” but they don’t work any worse than oil lubricants. There are a few wild claims made, that in my opinion and experience, are unbelievable but wax is certainly cleaner.

The problem isn’t on the manufacturing end. It’s on the consumer end. The factory already uses a wax lubricant but it isn’t widely available for home use so people end up using products that aren’t as good as what the factory uses. And the factory can’t control what gets thrown at the chain.

There’s not really any need for the elaborate cleaning procedures used by many people. They aren’t based in any kind of measured or tested methodology but are based on what people think needs to be done. A single step of mineral spirits is all that is really needed to clean the chain sufficiently for either hot wax or solvent wax applications. Anything more than that is wasting time, energy, and chemicals.

The exception is Squirt which is a different product that needs a bit more through cleaning. Since it uses surfactants to to hold the wax in a water base, it is less compatible with the factory wax. The amount of surfactant used is likely right at the edge of wax saturation in the mixture. Any added wax get excluded because there is a limit to how much wax the mixture can hold. The wax on the chain needs to be removed completely or the Squirt would sit on top of the existing wax. But a couple of washes of mineral spirits will do that job. There’s not need for a 47 step cleaning process.

terrymorse 

Sure. If done at the factory with a high enough production volume, it should cost very little extra to waxify a chain.

But at the retail level, where they're prepping one chain at a time, and they're charging retail labor rates, $50 is not out of the ballpark.

SoSmellyAir

Yes, but only if done well for less than $10 more than market price of the base chain.

phughes

It seems Winter has come early.

Trakhak

Still, many cyclists are now aware of the merits of waxed chains. If a waxed version of a favorite chain cost only $10 or so more, some significant proportion of those cyclists would likely be willing to pay the difference. Whether, having discovered that maintaining the wax is a bit more involved than they expected, they'd continue to buy waxed chains is unpredictable.

79pmooney

Another consideration, this time for bike shops. Now they have to carry up to twice as many lines of chains. All the ones before in the various widths but now waxed and traditionally soft-waxed which we think of as oiled. And they are going to see both customers and employees mixing the two up. Customers getting home with not what they wanted. Now, BITD there were two chain standards, 1/8" (single speed) and 3/32" derailleur. That was the time to introduce the waxed option. (My entry into the world of wax was back then. Wax is hardly a new concept. Wax simply flunked my test - would the chain work in a concentrated salt water environment? No. Rust showed up sooner. There wasn't the simple "oil it some more and work the problems links" fix so with 5 minutes work the bike was ready to ride tomorrow.

icemilkcoffee 

I would absolutely buy a pre-waxed chain. Failing that I would also buy a 'clean' chain that has no sticky goo on it.

icemilkcoffee 

Mmmm. Their waxed chain doesn't look waxed at all. This is what happens when you yank the chain out when the wax is still very hot. The wax just runs right off the chain. You need to turn off the pot and let the wax cool for about half an hour. Now there will be wax visibly stuck to the chain. If you wait too long it will look like the chain got encased in wax- that's excessive.

jadmt

where are you getting durace 11speed chains for $39? that is a good deal, best I have seen is around $50. I still would not pay $49 extra tho.

KerryIrons

Ignoring the wax vs. no-wax argument, it's not clear to me why I would pay extra for a treatment that would last a couple of weeks (or less). I might as well take my chain to a bike shop and ask them to wax it (not likely to happen). And as noted by others, having to stock twice as many chains would be a real disincentive to chain suppliers.

urbanknight

Yeah, the more I think about it the more I realize that the people who like waxed chains are generally the ones who like to do it themselves. And as mentioned above, apparently the factory coating resists oxidization on the shelf, so an untreated chain wouldn't be desired either.

cyccommute 

I disagree with this statement for a couple of reasons. Fuchs used to make a product in the Gleitmo line that was specifically for bike chains. It appears they no longer do…at least I can find it on their website. It was a wax.

Additionally, no chain instructions I’ve ever seen says to clean the chain before installation. The maintenance instructions from SRAM says

It doesn’t say to clean before installation.

Finally, I have cleaned many new chains with a single volume (about 250 mL) of mineral spirits. Upon sitting, I noticed a phase separation with a flocculant type of material in the mixture. Oil in mineral spirits is essentially infinitely soluble. Wax in mineral spirits isn’t. There is a solubility limit for the wax. That’s what I observed in my solvent bottle.

cyccommute 

I really doubt that Silca is prepping one chain at a time. They have manufacturing facilities (owned or hired) that do their production work. They have the economies of scale to do waxing for less than $50 per chain. But Silca also likes to overcharge for lots of stuff and have a clientele that is willing to pay their prices.

But that doesn’t negate the fact that waxed chains have a limited use before the wax has to be reapplied. That $50 extra per chain is basically wasted money unless it comes with a “return it for rewaxing” program.