jaysailor

I’d love to get a handle on the value of this bike. I have also posted my other vintage custom rig (a KNELLER Sport/Race frame with Campy drivetrain and sew-ups). This post is for the more comfortable of the two bikes, my Ron Cooper Road/Tour bike with full Campy NR group. Any feedback on value and stories of similar bikes will be appreciated. I have included a bunch of pictures below the description.


Hand-built in England for me by Ron Cooper in 1979, this is an incredibly beautiful example of the classic craftsmanship of one of England’s best known custom frame builders. I ordered this frame with “road/tour” geometry so that it would be comfortable for general recreational riding or touring with fully-laden panniers. I then built is up with a full Campagnolo Nuovo Record component group and enjoyed riding it for the next 40+ years. By my measurement, the frame size looks like 23.25” (59cm); for reference, I am 5’11.5” and my pants generally have a 30” or 31” inseam.

I have tried to describe this bike to the best of my ability here, but please check out the images carefully and feel free also to send me questions.

FRAME

Ron Cooper was a noted Master Builder who began building bicycle frames at age 15 in 1947. He learned his craft from frame builders in England and eventually set up his own shop in South London. Cooper's custom steel alloy frames became known for their stability, neutral handling and responsiveness. His craftsmanship it evident throughout this beautiful lugged Reynolds 531 custom frame; be sure to look for the details in the images. All of the elegantly-carved lugs are cleanly brazed, with beautiful tapered transitions to the main tubes. I paid extra for the fancy lugwork, custom fittings and metallic blue paint job. You will see a variety of heart-shaped cutouts, one with the Cooper “C” brazed in the middle of the heart. Brazed-on fittings include cable guides, shift lever bosses, reinforced water bottle fittings and derailleur cable guides.

The bike frame is physically in great condition and the paint job is in fine shape except around the head tube lugs (where the head tube connects to the top tube and down tube; see images). Cracked paint in these spots is the result of a crash about 10 years ago that really rocked the handlebars and broke my small front Blackburn pannier rack; along with damage to my own body, the shock caused the frame to flex enough that the enamel paint cracked where the lugs join the frame on the back side of the head tube. Fortunately, Reynolds 531 tubing is very resilient, as long as it has not been crushed or truly bent. When I found the cracks in the paint, I had the frame checked out at a local shop; they said that these frames can absorb a lot of shock without any real damage, as long as nothing is bent or broken. They measured to see if it was knocked out of alignment and declared the frame to still be true; they did not feel the head tube, lugwork or headset had been compromised. The front fork seems as straight as ever and the frame still measures true from headtube to rear triangle. I just did a quick tune-up, and this bike still rides beautifully. There are a few additional dings and rust spots in typical places on the frame, including some chain wear. However, for the most part, the paint job has held up really well for a 43-year-old bike frame. I have given serious thought to stripping the frame and doing a new paint job; looks like I can get replacement decals on eBay.

I don't know what all the angles are on this frame and don’t have a good way of measuring them. However, here are the approximate frame dimensions, based on my own measurements:

Frame Size: 23.25” (59cm)

Wheelbase: 41.75” (106cm)

Standover Height: 33.3” (84.6cm)

Top Tube: 22.5” (57cm)

Chainstays: 17.3” (44cm)

Bottom Bracket Height: 9.5” (24cm)

Accessory Features: Downtube has brazed-on bosses for Campagnolo shift lever and a set of reinforced screw fittings (for water bottles, etc.); Other braze-ons include brake cable guides and derailleur cable guides & stops.

COMPONENTS

This bike features the full Campagnolo Nuovo Record component group. Everything is pretty clean, with a minimum amount of pitting, rust or dings.

DRIVETRAIN

Shift Levers: Campagnolo Nuovo Record down tube shifters with blue Campagnolo rubber covers

Derailleurs: Campagnolo Nuovo Record front and rear derailleurs

Bottom Bracket: Campagnolo Nuovo Record

Crankset: Campagnolo Nuovo Record with 170mm arms and 42/52-tooth chainrings

Pedals: Campagnolo Nuovo Record pedals

Toe Clips: ATOS spring steel

Straps: Alfredo Binda laminated leather toe straps with strap buttons

Freewheel: Regina Oro 5-speed freewheel with 14, 16, 18, 21, 24 gearing

Hubs: Campagnolo Nuovo Record low-flange front & rear hubs

Rims: Mavic Open Pro 700c (622 x 15) aluminum clincher rims

Wheel Build: 36-hole rims laced with DT Swiss double-butted stainless-steel spokes in a 3-cross pattern

Tires: Vrederstein Ricorso 23mm 700c foldable clincher tires (90 – 130 lbs)

OTHER COMPONENTS

Headset: Campagnolo Nuovo Record

Brakes: Campagnolo Nuovo Record side-pull brakes (front & rear) with a set of original Campagnolo pads with integrated guides

Brake Levers: Campagnolo Nuovo Record with new gum rubber hoods

Brake Cables: New Campagnolo brake cables covered in new cherry-red Easy Glide brake cable housings

Stems: Cinelli alloy 70mm quill stem

Handlebars: Cinelli drop handlebars covered with red padded tape

Seat Post: Campagnolo Nuovo Record seat post

Saddles: Avocet Racing II men's saddle

ACCESSORIES

• Silca frame-fit pump with Campagnolo Presta valve
• Cateye Astrale 8 cyclometer (speed, cadence, distance); includes box & instructions
• Blackburn aluminum water bottle cage
• Blackburn bike rack
• Strap hooks on front and rear dropouts

3alarmer 

.
...Ron Cooper bikes like yours show up on the SF Bay area Craigslist every now and then.
This is because a lot of them got sold out of Bicycle Odyssey in Sausalito, which had some sort off connection to him,

Something like yours used to sell on the Craigslist in the $800-$900 range in reasonably good shape, which yours appears to be.
Yours might go for a little less because of those paint issues in your pictures. The ones I've encountered have pretty good paint, so that's a puzzle.

I haven't seen any lately, and for some reason sales of stuff like this locally are pretty slow right now.

jaysailor

I have been occasionally seeing similar Cooper bikes for $1,200 - $1,600 with cleaner (but still dinged up) frames and similar components. A Cooper bike that is similar (and similarly equipped) to mine is listed on eBay for $1,300. Other current eBay listings include complete Cooper bikes (with less fancy lugwork and no brazed-on fittings), at $1,450, $1,650 and $1,850. There is also a basic track frame and headset (no components) that is listed on eBay for $1,100, On the Silicon Valley Bicycle Exchange, there is a nice Cooper listed for $1,350. A built-up Cooper track bike that had been listed for $2,500 sold recently on the Pros Closet.

KonAaron Snake 

I really love Ron Cooper bikes. The older touring bikes like this are variable in value IME...the crowd that wants to do serious touring prefer a more modern Japanese bike, or later tourer based on the features. Usually collectors tend to prefer road bikes. That said, the tourers are usually more uncommon, and often better practical every day riders. THis could be a heck of a gravel grinder for instance. I love bikes like this and have several.

Cooper isn't a highly known name...and he's not Italian. He's undervalued, but there are people who know him and his work. If this were my size, I'd probably want to pay about $500 as a cheap bastard. If I were selling it, I'd probably be looking for $800-$900, but I'm in a strong market, and I wouldn't be in a rush. I think 3 alarmer is pretty right on for ebay value.

jaysailor

Thanks for your feedback. According to Ron, this was designed to be a compromise between a "road" and "tour" frame. His goal was to make it ride like a good road frame, but with a little more comfort and the ability to handle a touring load. It's done everything great for me. Sadly, I am off riding drops due to nagging injuries.

79pmooney

Fun! This bike shares roots with my 1979 Peter Mooney. (He apprenticed in England with, as I recall, Cooper or Holdsworth). My Mooney has the same size, a tough longer top tube, maybe slightly bigger tire clearances but over all, very close. Ever consider the forum name 79rcooper?

My Mooney always felt a little light in back and a little less than secure on rough downhill corners unless I remembered to push myself back in the saddle; not my natural instinct. But in it's latest incarnation as a fix gear roadie, not an issue. At sub-pedal scraping speeds, it behaves like a dream and is an all day rider over any roads. (I cannot fault Peter for the handling. I insisted on chainstays long enough to both tour and fit perhaps large 27" tires with fenders. Never saw either 27" or snow winters but has toured. And succeeded at its mission very well - to be my link to sanity over the crazy post TBI years; the bike I could ride anywhere in the lower 48 any of the 12 months.

Your bike looks to have much of the same capabilities. Ought to make for a great ride for someone.

3alarmer 

...yes. If you are willing to list, ship, and generally deal with all the ******** involved in an Ebay sale, that will probably get you the widest audience, and probably the highest selling price. I know little, if anything, about selling or buying a bike on Ebay, as I have never done so. There are others here who know much more about that marketing strategy. I just do relatively local exchanges, either here in Sacramento, or for something special, like a Ron Cooper, I used to be willing to drive to the SF Bay area, which is not that far away.

Even locally, stuff lists for slightly higher prices down in San Francisco than it does here in the Central Valley. But there are a lot of high end classic steel bikes listed down there right now that have been listed on CL for a long time. I do think sales of this sort of thing locally are slow. They might very well be different where you live. I need to sell some stuff myself, and I hope it changes when the weather cools off a little bit in the fall. The market demographic of people who know how much fun these bikes are to ride, and is willing to work on and ride them, is shrinking or aging out. It might get replaced by younger riders eventually. There's the whole "bespoke" and "artisanal" attraction, which was big for a while with the hipster generation. Right now, based on personal experience with listing some few things on CL at higher than $500, I've seen zero interest.

Remember that you need not only someone who is interested in something like this, they also need to be sized to fit. It's a significant limitation in a shrinking marketplace. But I'm not trying to discourage you. It's a wonderful bicycle, and would probably be a good introduction to riding this sort of thing for someone younger and sized appropriately. Most of those guys here, with the cash to spend on a thousand dollar bike are going to the Specialized dealership and spending more. Plastic is what they see in the TDF. It's the modern, space age material.

jaysailor

70pmooney and 3alarmer - Thanks for your feedback!

rccardr 

I think right now, on eBay, as it sits, a $1200 BIN listing with a make offer option would be about right but woild not be surprised it if went out the door for $900.
World’s largest bike market but also means you have to ship and pay 14% fees.
Assuming buyer pays to ship, that can be close to $200 depending on location and who does the packing. Any buyer will mentally add that, and sales tax, to the total cost.
59cm sizing will knock out a lot of buyers who are under 5’11”.
Others will be put off by the paint loss around the head tube. You say it’s a solid frame but some buyers will be doubtful given the price.
Totally agree with KonAaron that it’s a great all-around bike with a lot of potential happiness built in.
Best of luck with the sale.

Ps:Ignore eBay posted prices, pay attention to SOLD prices.

wrk101

As mentioned by the Doctor, asking prices on ebay are meaningless. Its all about what items actually SELL for (sold prices). Pick an item, any item, and you will find some silly high asking prices, way over what stuff sells for.

Ebay means lots of fees, and you have to pack and ship too. Then don't be surprised you WILL get a 1099 next January from ebay managed payments. It will be up to you to carefully document all your costs (or pay income tax on the entire amount, your choice). Historically, people didn't get a 1099 until they hit the $20,000 gross mark. Those days are over. Congress passed a bill in 2021 lowering the reporting to $600. Don't blame ebay. Sell stuff here on the forum, and if you take payment through PayPal, you will get a 1099 from them.

I've been over the old limit so I have been doing this for several years. Documenting costs is very tedious and time consuming. And anything over my costs is income, which is taxed both by the state and federal government. Taxes were always due, but the lack of a 1099 allowed some to avoid it.

That reminds me, I need to document this weekend's eBay sales....

https://www.forbes.com/advisor/taxes/cash-apps-to-report-payments-of-600-or-more/

KonAaron Snake 

Bill - slightly wrong my friend...the threshold is still 20k/200 transactions for third party payments issuing a 1099-K, which is what you get in this case. It's 600 for paying an individual who isn't a corp, with a few exceptions.

There is still a reporting obligation on income...although there are times that ebay sales can be considered sales of home goods covered by an exception...there is also a garage sale exception. Obligatio n or not, there's nop 1099-K until 20k/200.

KonAaron Snake 

If anyone wants to get into the tax-ability of bicycle sales...I am willing to bore you to tears. Depending on the transactions, they could be considered ordinary income (I think for Bill this is actually the case), hobby income, personal use gains/losses, collectible cap gains, or regular capital gains (ST or LT determined on holding period). If anyone is worried, I can advise based on the specifics.

I have usually classified my sales as either collectibles or personal use...which is a somewhat conservative approach, but I'm not putting my license at risk over a few dollars.

wrk101

Yeah, I "qualified" for the 1099 under the old rules so this is not a change for me.

Here's Ebay's announcement on the new rule. As always, talk to a tax professional (NOT ME) for the latest on this topic. This may not be the most accurate information. I do know they shut down my wife's store when she hit the $600 mark earlier this year until they got her SS# in their records.

https://www.ebay.com/sellercenter/payments-and-fees/2022-changes-to-ebay-and-your-1099-k


Quote from this link:

• Starting on Jan 1, 2022, eBay and other marketplaces are required by the IRS to issue a Form 1099-K for all sellers who receive $600 or more in sales.
• The new tax reporting requirement will impact your 2022 sales and taxes that you file in 2023—it will not apply to your 2021 sales and taxes that you file in 2022. Throughout 2022, look for updates from us that will help explain what’s changed and what you need to do next.
• If you haven’t already given us your Social Security number (SSN) or Individual Tax Identification Number (ITIN), we’ll ask you to provide it once you reach $600 in sales.

KonAaron Snake 

Well I feel like an ass, and I am (supposedly) a tax pro! I thought I recalled them repealing that...but apparently that effort is still on going. I apologize for my incorrect correction! FWIW - I don't think the $600 threshold will be in play come Dec. 31.

rccardr 

That would be nice.
My state (VA) has been using the $600 threshold for a while, so this is old hat to me.
A pain, yes, but since I lose $ on selling bike stuff every year, not a drain on my wallet.

wrk101

I tend to make quite a bit on other stuff, like books. The right book for $1 can bring $50, $100, or even more. Easy to pack, takes no time, no consumables, no rust, etc. Also takes up a lot less space. Books move slow, but the return is there. Like bikes, you need to know WHICH books have value. So its not just any book. The books I sell tend to not have a bar code on them, so scanning books won't work in my case. The good news is the average book picker doesn't know literature, they just rely on the scanner. So they pass on a lot of stuff.

Hard to get more than 2X out of a bike. Sold a bible yesterday, 25X. Bought a US Forest Service uniform shirt for 50 cents last week, sold it yesterday for $48 (bought it for the patch, I didn't know the shirt had value). Comparables had sold as high as $70.

bikingshearer 

Ron Coopers are special bikes and I'd hate to see you give yours up unless and until you really have to. So, in that spirit:

You could turn it into a flat-bar or even a slight riser bar bike. Or you could get a Nitto Technomic stem (new ones available at Velo Orange) and raise those drop bars quite a bit higher, which might alleviate your issues and not require buying new brake levers. You will likely need new brake cables regardless. And if you keep the same amount of stem reach, as the stem goes up, the distance you have to reach decreases. Either solution could give the more upright position it sounds like your body needs now.

Plus you don't have to deal with the Form 1099 malarkey.

Just a thought.