Are Climbing Wheels Funner to Ride?
#1
Method to My Madness
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,695
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1968 Post(s)
Liked 1,485 Times
in
1,030 Posts
Are Climbing Wheels Funner to Ride?
Assuming that the Synapse 2RLE I ordered arrives unscathed and survives its first few test rides, it would be time to go wheel shopping. The question is: shallower climbing wheels or deeper race wheels?
For example, comparing Roval Alpinist CL II (climbing wheelset) vs. Rapide CL II (race wheelset). A 215 g (i.e., just under half a pound) difference. This video (comparing the lighter and more expensive CLX II versions of these respective wheels) claims that the Rapide is 40 s faster than the Alpinist over a 10 km course over varied terrain.
And I have no reason to doubt the video! Everything I have read here and elsewhere says deeper wheels are faster everywhere except for > 10% grade. But even if the video is somehow representative of my fitness and my "go to" ride -- i.e., 28 miles; 1,100 ft. elevation gain; 15.5 mph average speed -- which usually takes just under 1 hour and 50 minutes, extrapolating the results from the video means that I finish 3 minutes faster. But I am not racing; I just want my new bike to be fun to ride, faster to accelerate (both from a stop and from cruising speed), and to handle well. Which type of wheels would you choose, and why?
For example, comparing Roval Alpinist CL II (climbing wheelset) vs. Rapide CL II (race wheelset). A 215 g (i.e., just under half a pound) difference. This video (comparing the lighter and more expensive CLX II versions of these respective wheels) claims that the Rapide is 40 s faster than the Alpinist over a 10 km course over varied terrain.
And I have no reason to doubt the video! Everything I have read here and elsewhere says deeper wheels are faster everywhere except for > 10% grade. But even if the video is somehow representative of my fitness and my "go to" ride -- i.e., 28 miles; 1,100 ft. elevation gain; 15.5 mph average speed -- which usually takes just under 1 hour and 50 minutes, extrapolating the results from the video means that I finish 3 minutes faster. But I am not racing; I just want my new bike to be fun to ride, faster to accelerate (both from a stop and from cruising speed), and to handle well. Which type of wheels would you choose, and why?
#2
ignominious poltroon
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 4,073
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2252 Post(s)
Liked 3,457 Times
in
1,815 Posts
Funner.
Especially weight-weanie light-weight rear wheels with about 5 spokes in them.
Those make the hill-climbing experience even more funner. Especially when they go taco hell.
What is wrong with the stock wheels?
Especially weight-weanie light-weight rear wheels with about 5 spokes in them.
Those make the hill-climbing experience even more funner. Especially when they go taco hell.
What is wrong with the stock wheels?
#3
Method to My Madness
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,695
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1968 Post(s)
Liked 1,485 Times
in
1,030 Posts
#4
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,146
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 3,602 Times
in
1,807 Posts
And I have no reason to doubt the video! Everything I have read here and elsewhere says deeper wheels are faster everywhere except for > 10% grade. But even if the video is somehow representative of my fitness and my "go to" ride -- i.e., 28 miles; 1,100 ft. elevation g
Or if you just want to have a fun ride, skip the aero.
Likes For terrymorse:
#5
Method to My Madness
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,695
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1968 Post(s)
Liked 1,485 Times
in
1,030 Posts
SoCal has been windier than usual this past winter. But I wonder if my squirrelly line is really due to wind gusts hitting my 45 mm deep wheels or my substantial bulk?
In my limited experience, riding lighter wheels does make the bike feel faster, even though I may not be actually going any faster.
In my limited experience, riding lighter wheels does make the bike feel faster, even though I may not be actually going any faster.
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2023
Location: NorCal
Posts: 524
Bikes: Santa Cruz Blur 4 TR, Canyon Endurace cf sl, Canyon Ultimate cf slx, Canyon Strive enduro, Canyon Grizl sl8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 222 Post(s)
Liked 885 Times
in
356 Posts
Like adult underwear, the answer is depends. I've been playing around with the My Windsock app and seeing where how aero and weight factor into my rides. It appears the break over point, where weight trumps aero, is on rides with more than 100' per mile.
That being said, my new bike is a climbing frame, but with aero wheels...I think it strikes a good balance and any weakness on the hills can be attributed mostly to its rider. My other bike has a heavier frame with similar wheels, I used to think the wheels made it feel just a bit sluggish on the hills, but now I chalk it up to the total weight of the bike and possibly frame stiffness. The new bike feels very responsive in comparison, despite having the same depth wheels. Certainly no less responsive than the weight-weenie carbon rim-brake bike it replaced.
That being said, my new bike is a climbing frame, but with aero wheels...I think it strikes a good balance and any weakness on the hills can be attributed mostly to its rider. My other bike has a heavier frame with similar wheels, I used to think the wheels made it feel just a bit sluggish on the hills, but now I chalk it up to the total weight of the bike and possibly frame stiffness. The new bike feels very responsive in comparison, despite having the same depth wheels. Certainly no less responsive than the weight-weenie carbon rim-brake bike it replaced.
Likes For Sierra_rider:
#7
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,468
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3165 Post(s)
Liked 1,723 Times
in
1,041 Posts
I don’t think road wheels start getting un-fun until you’re rolling in the 1800g range, and I doubt the 215g difference between the Rovals negatively impacts the fun feel, so I’d go deeper and take the extra aero bennies all over the place.
Likes For chaadster:
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,312
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18443 Post(s)
Liked 15,655 Times
in
7,364 Posts
Likes For indyfabz:
#9
Mother Nature's Son
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,119
Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 854 Post(s)
Liked 1,441 Times
in
821 Posts
Why would they be “funner”? Change of weight, handling, and maybe a bit of speed difference, sure. I’ll add comfort. But “Funner”, not in my bike world.
#10
ignominious poltroon
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 4,073
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2252 Post(s)
Liked 3,457 Times
in
1,815 Posts
26" wheels are more funner.
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,113
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4434 Post(s)
Liked 1,576 Times
in
1,038 Posts
My ultralight wheels makes the bike behave differently in a way I like. Aero wheels don't feel like anything until you get your stopwatch out.
So it depends if you ride your bike for pleasure or for Strava.
So it depends if you ride your bike for pleasure or for Strava.
Likes For Kontact:
#12
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,146
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3461 Post(s)
Liked 3,602 Times
in
1,807 Posts
As a "low mass" rider, I've noticed that I get blown around more than the bulkier riders.
#13
Method to My Madness
Thread Starter
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,695
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1968 Post(s)
Liked 1,485 Times
in
1,030 Posts
Exactly. In conditions where even my 90 kg (just < 200 lbs.) bulk is being blown off my line, I am not sure that a 15 mm or 20 mm difference in wheel depth would make a lot of difference.
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,698
Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 436 Post(s)
Liked 462 Times
in
318 Posts
In theory a lighter rim should be easier to spin up to speed from stop. In reality, how perceptible is this between two wheels? My personal experience is that a 30-38mm carbon rim feels more responsive than a 50-88mm carbon rim. If you're doing a lot of stop and go (which I do, because I try not to run too many red lights or stop signs), or sudden accelerations in a group ride setting, it may make the lighter wheels more enjoyable. If you do a lot of solo country road miles I might think the deeper heavier wheels could be better at holding a constant speed.
Likes For tFUnK:
#16
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,113
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4434 Post(s)
Liked 1,576 Times
in
1,038 Posts
Likes For Kontact:
#18
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,239
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2599 Post(s)
Liked 5,680 Times
in
2,932 Posts
Hunt just came out with a light weight climbing wheel you might want to check out. 963 grams.
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Last edited by rsbob; 04-07-24 at 07:45 PM.
#19
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,517
Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE
Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7657 Post(s)
Liked 3,499 Times
in
1,848 Posts
In my experience---lighter wheels are faster ... for the first two or three pedal strokes. Accelerating? Lighter Feels better .... but after two or three pedal strokes the bike is moving faster and the wheels feel the same.
So, yes ... "funner."
However ... it is like having lighter and heavier bikes. Ride a few miles and they all feel like themselves.Comparisons are impossible and it becomes all about what you are riding now, not about what yo rode last week or whatever.
I'd look for something in the 38-mm range or so ... aero enough and still light. $$ mm seems to be the standard for "regular aero wheels, and anything more is too specialized for me .... and you might send a lot of time fighting the front wheel in crosswinds (I am Not a "low-mass" rider and on a day with 26-mph gusts, I was forced to correct firmly after each gust ... not so cool when the wind is pushing you into the traffic. and that was on low-weight 25-mm-deep rims. Double that and winds would be scary.)
So, yes ... "funner."
However ... it is like having lighter and heavier bikes. Ride a few miles and they all feel like themselves.Comparisons are impossible and it becomes all about what you are riding now, not about what yo rode last week or whatever.
I'd look for something in the 38-mm range or so ... aero enough and still light. $$ mm seems to be the standard for "regular aero wheels, and anything more is too specialized for me .... and you might send a lot of time fighting the front wheel in crosswinds (I am Not a "low-mass" rider and on a day with 26-mph gusts, I was forced to correct firmly after each gust ... not so cool when the wind is pushing you into the traffic. and that was on low-weight 25-mm-deep rims. Double that and winds would be scary.)
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,113
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4434 Post(s)
Liked 1,576 Times
in
1,038 Posts
The essential conflict is between numerical performance and enjoyment. Do you require better wheels because you otherwise might not win? Or do you ride a racing bicycle for the pleasure of its sportiness and moment-to-moment excitement brought by responsive design? Light wheels are like fast handling and precise shifting.
Likes For Kontact:
#21
Junior Member
Go with what you enjoy more. If you like blasting the flats and just general speed get the aero wheels. If you like the "surge" feeling on climbs as you stand and push a big gear go with the climbing wheels. I have only went from decent to lighter wheels on my mtb, but it was a noticeable difference when climbing and I could tell when accelerating out of a slow corner.
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Baltimore, MD
Posts: 5,398
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2496 Post(s)
Liked 2,975 Times
in
1,687 Posts
Ever wonder why pros sometimes switch bikes in time trials that include a big climb? Why not ride the bike with lighter wheels from the start?
RChung once or twice provided a link to study results showing that lighter wheels subtly sap energy everywhere but in substantial climbs. That's due to reduced conservation of energy with light wheels: less flywheel effect. In that sense, wheels function as capacitors. That also might explain why designers of high-performance aero bike wheels seem to have become less concerned about wheel weight. After all, most races have far more kms of flat or rolling terrain than of big climbs.
The Hi-E wheels I owned (briefly) in the mid-1980's might well have been the lightest production wheels ever designed. Scary light. I did a few time trials with them, and they were great on steep hills, but I never got used to the slight choppiness of pedaling - the perceptible micro-acceleration with each pedal stroke - everywhere else. That, plus the way they made my bike feel weirdly top-heavy, motivated me to sell them after a few months.
RChung once or twice provided a link to study results showing that lighter wheels subtly sap energy everywhere but in substantial climbs. That's due to reduced conservation of energy with light wheels: less flywheel effect. In that sense, wheels function as capacitors. That also might explain why designers of high-performance aero bike wheels seem to have become less concerned about wheel weight. After all, most races have far more kms of flat or rolling terrain than of big climbs.
The Hi-E wheels I owned (briefly) in the mid-1980's might well have been the lightest production wheels ever designed. Scary light. I did a few time trials with them, and they were great on steep hills, but I never got used to the slight choppiness of pedaling - the perceptible micro-acceleration with each pedal stroke - everywhere else. That, plus the way they made my bike feel weirdly top-heavy, motivated me to sell them after a few months.
Likes For Trakhak:
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: Québec, Canada
Posts: 2,119
Bikes: SL8 Pro, TCR beater
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 994 Post(s)
Liked 588 Times
in
442 Posts
I'd only ride and use climbing wheels if I was climbing literally 100% of a ride. A race where you need to get to the top of a mountain as fast as possible, for instance. As soon as you need to go down, the sailing effect outweighs the advantages IMO, and I'd get a ''balanced'' wheel (40mm or something).
Prove me wrong.
Prove me wrong.
Likes For eduskator:
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 8,505
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4445 Post(s)
Liked 4,903 Times
in
3,034 Posts
But even if the video is somehow representative of my fitness and my "go to" ride -- i.e., 28 miles; 1,100 ft. elevation gain; 15.5 mph average speed -- which usually takes just under 1 hour and 50 minutes, extrapolating the results from the video means that I finish 3 minutes faster. But I am not racing; I just want my new bike to be fun to ride, faster to accelerate (both from a stop and from cruising speed), and to handle well. Which type of wheels would you choose, and why?
The aero gains however are quite measurable and may or may not be useful to you. But they are there for the taking with no significant penalty on the ride you mention above.
So I would definitely take the aero wheels and their measurable real world speed gains, which are relatively lightweight and therefore fun anyway.
#25
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,468
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3165 Post(s)
Liked 1,723 Times
in
1,041 Posts
When it comes to fun, light is right. A light bike, car, moto, boat, etc will feel more reactive and transmit a sense of directness and urgency ehich is at the very heart of what “feels fun” is.
“Funner” is not faster nor better. Don’t confuse the terms.
The old “light or aero?” paradigm is dead. Aero wheels can be plenty light for fun and still be faster. It used to be that a deep, aero-section wheelset was 2000g, but today, even better performance can be had for 1500g; that’s more than a pound less.
Also, modern, more bluntly rounded, aero rim shapes are less affected by cross-wind gusts than the old V-shape rims, so it’s good to know what people are actually riding where you are; ask around to aero rim riders in your area about which depth they think is optimal for conditions. I don’t have trouble with modern 45/52mm depths here in SE MI (and am going deeper on an inbound set), but coastal roads on windward side of Hawai’i might suggest differently.
“Funner” is not faster nor better. Don’t confuse the terms.
The old “light or aero?” paradigm is dead. Aero wheels can be plenty light for fun and still be faster. It used to be that a deep, aero-section wheelset was 2000g, but today, even better performance can be had for 1500g; that’s more than a pound less.
Also, modern, more bluntly rounded, aero rim shapes are less affected by cross-wind gusts than the old V-shape rims, so it’s good to know what people are actually riding where you are; ask around to aero rim riders in your area about which depth they think is optimal for conditions. I don’t have trouble with modern 45/52mm depths here in SE MI (and am going deeper on an inbound set), but coastal roads on windward side of Hawai’i might suggest differently.
Likes For chaadster: