The Etiquette of Drafting
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
The Etiquette of Drafting
Newish cyclist here, riding mostly on roads. Just wondered what people’s thoughts are on the “unannounced drafter”.
I live in Perth (Western Australia) and it’s bloody windy! As such it’s really helpful to get on another cyclist’s wheel, but it doesn’t always feel fair.
Case in point, today I was cycling along a long, flat path and a cyclist was up ahead. I was catching him pretty quick, announced that I was about to pass, and did so. I had a feeling he attached himself to my wheel and when I came to turn off a few kilometres later it was confirmed. There was a fairly strong headwind that I did all the work against. He didn’t ask if he could “hitch a ride”.
But the caveat to all this is that he was clearly slower than me when up against the wind himself, so I wouldn’t have wanted him to go ahead. I’d have ended up slower (albeit getting a bit of a rest). So where’s the harm in him riding behind me?
I feel like I’m being a petty little guy! 😂
But then, that said, I had somebody else do it without me knowing. I thought I heard something fall from my bike and my immediate reaction was to brake and look back…to see another cyclist swerving around me and muttering a curse. Which I think was totally unacceptable. I accept that there are “slowing down” signals, but it all happened so fast and it was only an issue because he was a few inches off my rear wheel, benefiting from the slipstream.
So what are people’s thoughts on this? Is there a fairly well accepted etiquette?
I live in Perth (Western Australia) and it’s bloody windy! As such it’s really helpful to get on another cyclist’s wheel, but it doesn’t always feel fair.
Case in point, today I was cycling along a long, flat path and a cyclist was up ahead. I was catching him pretty quick, announced that I was about to pass, and did so. I had a feeling he attached himself to my wheel and when I came to turn off a few kilometres later it was confirmed. There was a fairly strong headwind that I did all the work against. He didn’t ask if he could “hitch a ride”.
But the caveat to all this is that he was clearly slower than me when up against the wind himself, so I wouldn’t have wanted him to go ahead. I’d have ended up slower (albeit getting a bit of a rest). So where’s the harm in him riding behind me?
I feel like I’m being a petty little guy! 😂
But then, that said, I had somebody else do it without me knowing. I thought I heard something fall from my bike and my immediate reaction was to brake and look back…to see another cyclist swerving around me and muttering a curse. Which I think was totally unacceptable. I accept that there are “slowing down” signals, but it all happened so fast and it was only an issue because he was a few inches off my rear wheel, benefiting from the slipstream.
So what are people’s thoughts on this? Is there a fairly well accepted etiquette?
#2
Senior Member
It's not "nice" but that's to be expected.
When you're out experiencing "life" you'll run across people who take and other people who give. That transcends all sports. Cycling is no different. When I encounter a situation like yours where I catch a slower rider and they want to cling to my wheel to keep up, I'll do it for a few hundred yards and if they don't do a pull, I get up from my saddle and drop them if I can.
Now mind you, this does NOT happen often with me because there are lots of faster riders in my area, but it does happen occasionally. Try doing the same and don't get worked up over wheel suckers. On the other hand, I have been known to slow way down to force the rider to make a decision to go around or be an obvious wheel sucker. I rarely do that and only if I'm in a bad mood that day, which is also very rare.
When you're out experiencing "life" you'll run across people who take and other people who give. That transcends all sports. Cycling is no different. When I encounter a situation like yours where I catch a slower rider and they want to cling to my wheel to keep up, I'll do it for a few hundred yards and if they don't do a pull, I get up from my saddle and drop them if I can.
Now mind you, this does NOT happen often with me because there are lots of faster riders in my area, but it does happen occasionally. Try doing the same and don't get worked up over wheel suckers. On the other hand, I have been known to slow way down to force the rider to make a decision to go around or be an obvious wheel sucker. I rarely do that and only if I'm in a bad mood that day, which is also very rare.
#3
Galveston County Texas
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In The Wind
Posts: 33,222
Bikes: 02 GTO, 2011 Magnum
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1350 Post(s)
Liked 1,245 Times
in
623 Posts
Newish cyclist here, riding mostly on roads. Just wondered what people’s thoughts are on the “unannounced drafter”.
I live in Perth (Western Australia) and it’s bloody windy! As such it’s really helpful to get on another cyclist’s wheel, but it doesn’t always feel fair.
Case in point, today I was cycling along a long, flat path and a cyclist was up ahead. I was catching him pretty quick, announced that I was about to pass, and did so. I had a feeling he attached himself to my wheel and when I came to turn off a few kilometres later it was confirmed. There was a fairly strong headwind that I did all the work against. He didn’t ask if he could “hitch a ride”.
But the caveat to all this is that he was clearly slower than me when up against the wind himself, so I wouldn’t have wanted him to go ahead. I’d have ended up slower (albeit getting a bit of a rest). So where’s the harm in him riding behind me?
I feel like I’m being a petty little guy! 😂
But then, that said, I had somebody else do it without me knowing. I thought I heard something fall from my bike and my immediate reaction was to brake and look back…to see another cyclist swerving around me and muttering a curse. Which I think was totally unacceptable. I accept that there are “slowing down” signals, but it all happened so fast and it was only an issue because he was a few inches off my rear wheel, benefiting from the slipstream.
So what are people’s thoughts on this? Is there a fairly well accepted etiquette?
I live in Perth (Western Australia) and it’s bloody windy! As such it’s really helpful to get on another cyclist’s wheel, but it doesn’t always feel fair.
Case in point, today I was cycling along a long, flat path and a cyclist was up ahead. I was catching him pretty quick, announced that I was about to pass, and did so. I had a feeling he attached himself to my wheel and when I came to turn off a few kilometres later it was confirmed. There was a fairly strong headwind that I did all the work against. He didn’t ask if he could “hitch a ride”.
But the caveat to all this is that he was clearly slower than me when up against the wind himself, so I wouldn’t have wanted him to go ahead. I’d have ended up slower (albeit getting a bit of a rest). So where’s the harm in him riding behind me?
I feel like I’m being a petty little guy! 😂
But then, that said, I had somebody else do it without me knowing. I thought I heard something fall from my bike and my immediate reaction was to brake and look back…to see another cyclist swerving around me and muttering a curse. Which I think was totally unacceptable. I accept that there are “slowing down” signals, but it all happened so fast and it was only an issue because he was a few inches off my rear wheel, benefiting from the slipstream.
So what are people’s thoughts on this? Is there a fairly well accepted etiquette?
Enjoy The Boost
__________________
Fred "The Real Fred"
Fred "The Real Fred"
#4
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,222
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2584 Post(s)
Liked 5,642 Times
in
2,922 Posts
Likes For rsbob:
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,949
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3952 Post(s)
Liked 7,299 Times
in
2,947 Posts
Likes For tomato coupe:
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 12,906
Bikes: (2) ti TiCycles, 2007 w/ triple and 2011 fixed, 1979 Peter Mooney, ~1983 Trek 420 now fixed and ~1973 Raleigh Carlton Competition gravel grinder
Mentioned: 129 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4806 Post(s)
Liked 3,931 Times
in
2,556 Posts
I don't like it. That person is obligating me to ride for them or possibly put myself at risk when they crash into me if I do something unacceptable to a drafter behind. Announce yourself and give me the option to ride for you or be willing to take all risks including anything happening to me from your presence.
My view - unless there is agreement by both parties to suspend the law, the law should apply. Tailgating to the tune of 24 inches or less is illegal in most states. It is here in Oregon.
My view - unless there is agreement by both parties to suspend the law, the law should apply. Tailgating to the tune of 24 inches or less is illegal in most states. It is here in Oregon.
Likes For 79pmooney:
#7
Grupetto Bob
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Seattle-ish
Posts: 6,222
Bikes: Bikey McBike Face
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2584 Post(s)
Liked 5,642 Times
in
2,922 Posts
Now there are bicycle laws? Did I fall into an alternate reality?
__________________
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
#8
Obsessed with Eddington
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Brussels (BE) 🇧🇪
Posts: 1,330
Bikes: '16 Spesh Diverge, '14 Spesh Fatboy, '18 Spesh Epic, '18 Spesh SL6, '21 Spesh SL7, '21 Spesh Diverge...and maybe n+1?
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 532 Post(s)
Liked 621 Times
in
368 Posts
It's etiquette. Just like there is no law against farting in an elevator, but doing it is a Richard move.
Oh, and sliding in a taking someone's wheel uninvited that you don't know what a Fred does. Don't do it. Don't force others who were out on a solo training ride or just out for a spin to focus on you, too.
Oh, and sliding in a taking someone's wheel uninvited that you don't know what a Fred does. Don't do it. Don't force others who were out on a solo training ride or just out for a spin to focus on you, too.
Likes For Badger6:
#9
Senior Member
If you have any general concern toward the safety of other humans, it puts a responsibility on you.
Frankly a lot of people who hitch a wheel without asking have flat-out bad judgement. Mostly because they actually trust a stranger who hasn't made any kind of demonstration of safe or fun group-riding behavior, but for other reasons as well.
Recently I had some guy on an ebike do it to me. He was going around 15mph, I was cruising along at around 21mph, and he hopped on my wheel when I passed. About a mile later, he decided to hop in front to "help" right as we started to go downhill; I had to immediately re-pass to get up to reasonable speed. Not a big deal, but kind of silly.
Frankly a lot of people who hitch a wheel without asking have flat-out bad judgement. Mostly because they actually trust a stranger who hasn't made any kind of demonstration of safe or fun group-riding behavior, but for other reasons as well.
Recently I had some guy on an ebike do it to me. He was going around 15mph, I was cruising along at around 21mph, and he hopped on my wheel when I passed. About a mile later, he decided to hop in front to "help" right as we started to go downhill; I had to immediately re-pass to get up to reasonable speed. Not a big deal, but kind of silly.
Likes For HTupolev:
#10
Senior Member
This subject pops up pretty regularly here. If I am going to draft behind someone I come across on on a ride, I'll say something like "You mind if I tag along back here for a little bit?* A couple of times I have picked up an unexpected tail, and while I don't think it is polite for someone to ride on my backside without making himself known (if it were a "her" I wouldn't care), I won't get bent out of shape about it.
Likes For 50PlusCycling:
#11
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
I won't let an uninvited Fred suck my wheel. There are four options, aside from taking him down.
1. Drop him
2. Slow down to deliver a message
3. Stop and have a rest
4. Ask him to get off your wheel
There is potential harm, the wheelsucker could take you down. Different story with riders you know and accept the risk of riding together. Strangers with questionable riding ability? Not a risk I want to assume and it seems wrong to latch on without asking or getting an invite (hand wave from behind)
1. Drop him
2. Slow down to deliver a message
3. Stop and have a rest
4. Ask him to get off your wheel
There is potential harm, the wheelsucker could take you down. Different story with riders you know and accept the risk of riding together. Strangers with questionable riding ability? Not a risk I want to assume and it seems wrong to latch on without asking or getting an invite (hand wave from behind)
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 39,244
Mentioned: 211 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18420 Post(s)
Liked 15,563 Times
in
7,333 Posts
Likes For indyfabz:
#13
Mother Nature's Son
Join Date: Mar 2016
Location: Sussex County, Delaware
Posts: 3,118
Bikes: 2014 Orbea Avant MD30, 2004 Airborne Zeppelin TI, 2003 Lemond Poprad, 2001 Lemond Tourmalet, 2014? Soma Smoothie
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 853 Post(s)
Liked 1,437 Times
in
819 Posts
IMO, I have no responsibility for the safety of a stranger that jumps on my back wheel. My responsibility is my safety. At this point in my bike world, this is a bit of moot point as I almost never have someone do this.
#14
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
You know better than that if you're riding on roads, we're subject to lots of laws.
In most states, a bicyclist is a vehicle operator who has all applicable legal rights and duties on a road. That would definitely include anti-tailgating laws that require some prudent distance between vehicles.
On a path in Perth? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.
In most states, a bicyclist is a vehicle operator who has all applicable legal rights and duties on a road. That would definitely include anti-tailgating laws that require some prudent distance between vehicles.
On a path in Perth? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.
Likes For livedarklions:
#15
Enthusiastic Sufferer
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Perth, Australia
Posts: 229
Bikes: 2015 Specialized Roubaix, 2014 Salsa Fargo, 2013 Trek Remedy, 2014 Cannondale Synapse
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 124 Post(s)
Liked 311 Times
in
107 Posts
You know better than that if you're riding on roads, we're subject to lots of laws.
In most states, a bicyclist is a vehicle operator who has all applicable legal rights and duties on a road. That would definitely include anti-tailgating laws that require some prudent distance between vehicles.
On a path in Perth? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.
In most states, a bicyclist is a vehicle operator who has all applicable legal rights and duties on a road. That would definitely include anti-tailgating laws that require some prudent distance between vehicles.
On a path in Perth? I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised.
I find that below 30kph no one is really riding hard or fast enough to draft so it doesn't matter
On the flip side, if I'm holding down 35-40kph and someone jumps on my wheel, then they're generally strong and experienced enough to also take pulls, and with a little nudge of the elbow I've had fun little pace lines going on many a commute
If you don't like someone on your wheel, either speed up and drop them, slow down so they pass you or start firing off snot rockets
#16
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Unannounced wheel sucking is definitely a safety hazard and probably a traffic violation if done on a road. When I've caught people doing it to me on paths, I've told them I will stop suddenly for pedestrians and take no responsibility for signalling my stop or anything else to them. That has backed them off so far.
Pacelining of any kind on a MUP is generally unsafe. I do what I can to discourage drafting if I think there's any real likelihood of pedestrian traffic.
Pacelining of any kind on a MUP is generally unsafe. I do what I can to discourage drafting if I think there's any real likelihood of pedestrian traffic.
#17
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
I live in Perth. There's some pretty major and smooth sailing paths going all across the city
I find that below 30kph no one is really riding hard or fast enough to draft so it doesn't matter
On the flip side, if I'm holding down 35-40kph and someone jumps on my wheel, then they're generally strong and experienced enough to also take pulls, and with a little nudge of the elbow I've had fun little pace lines going on many a commute
If you don't like someone on your wheel, either speed up and drop them, slow down so they pass you or start firing off snot rockets
I find that below 30kph no one is really riding hard or fast enough to draft so it doesn't matter
On the flip side, if I'm holding down 35-40kph and someone jumps on my wheel, then they're generally strong and experienced enough to also take pulls, and with a little nudge of the elbow I've had fun little pace lines going on many a commute
If you don't like someone on your wheel, either speed up and drop them, slow down so they pass you or start firing off snot rockets
There are US MUPs where I think it's reasonably safe, and if people know they have a "partner", it's ok. I have seen people doing this while essentially slaloming through pedestrians, which I think was clearly illegal and dangerous.
Ninja wheelsucking under any nonrace circumstance isn't just an etiquette violation, it's really dangerous. At a minimum, tell someone you're there.
#18
Junior Member
Thread Starter
I live in Perth. There's some pretty major and smooth sailing paths going all across the city
I find that below 30kph no one is really riding hard or fast enough to draft so it doesn't matter
On the flip side, if I'm holding down 35-40kph and someone jumps on my wheel, then they're generally strong and experienced enough to also take pulls, and with a little nudge of the elbow I've had fun little pace lines going on many a commute
If you don't like someone on your wheel, either speed up and drop them, slow down so they pass you or start firing off snot rockets
I find that below 30kph no one is really riding hard or fast enough to draft so it doesn't matter
On the flip side, if I'm holding down 35-40kph and someone jumps on my wheel, then they're generally strong and experienced enough to also take pulls, and with a little nudge of the elbow I've had fun little pace lines going on many a commute
If you don't like someone on your wheel, either speed up and drop them, slow down so they pass you or start firing off snot rockets
My first example from today, doing the Canning Bridge to Narrows Strava segment (4.18km) I did 40.1kph at approx 10am.
My second example, cycling to work (essentially from UWA to the city, along Mounts Bay Road) was a “leisurely” 25kph or so, due to headwind.
In addition, I saw somebody get drafted earlier this week. I approached Mounts Bay Road from the Bell Tower. One cyclist ahead of me, who I was gaining on. Another guy came down off the Narrows Bridge, splitting us, but going at the same speed as me. I kept up with him, both gaining on the first cyclist, who he subsequently passed, who then stayed inches off his wheel. I think we averaged around 20kph due to a 30kph headwind (the doctor) and the gaps between me and the first two riders stayed the same. Me and the drafter peeled off at UWA and I passed him easily going up the western path of Kings Park.
Interested to hear your thoughts! It’s more about effort in my view, not outright speed.
#19
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Interesting to hear most people seem to think the same as me. It’s unfair and unsafe to draft.
But equally, as I pointed out, it’d actually be inconvenient if my first cyclist passed me to do his “fair share”.
So, being the sudden recipient of a slipstream, would you slow, to get out of it, and then continue at your earlier pace? Or tuck in behind and go along for the ride?
But equally, as I pointed out, it’d actually be inconvenient if my first cyclist passed me to do his “fair share”.
So, being the sudden recipient of a slipstream, would you slow, to get out of it, and then continue at your earlier pace? Or tuck in behind and go along for the ride?
#20
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,887
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6971 Post(s)
Liked 10,968 Times
in
4,692 Posts
#21
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2021
Posts: 4,083
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2333 Post(s)
Liked 2,097 Times
in
1,314 Posts
3-4% less drag for the lead rider in a tight paceline depending which study you want to believe
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...67610518306755
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...67610518306755
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Hacienda Hgts
Posts: 2,109
Bikes: 1999 Schwinn Peloton Ultegra 10, Kestrel RT-1000 Ultegra, Trek Marlin 6 Deore 29'er
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 822 Post(s)
Liked 1,961 Times
in
944 Posts
Ride in the hills and mountains and draft dodgers disappear magically.
#23
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,098 Times
in
5,054 Posts
Interesting to hear most people seem to think the same as me. It’s unfair and unsafe to draft.
But equally, as I pointed out, it’d actually be inconvenient if my first cyclist passed me to do his “fair share”.
So, being the sudden recipient of a slipstream, would you slow, to get out of it, and then continue at your earlier pace? Or tuck in behind and go along for the ride?
But equally, as I pointed out, it’d actually be inconvenient if my first cyclist passed me to do his “fair share”.
So, being the sudden recipient of a slipstream, would you slow, to get out of it, and then continue at your earlier pace? Or tuck in behind and go along for the ride?
I'm a solo rider, so I'm going to go whatever speed I would normally go at and if someone wants to tuck in front of me and go as fast as I normally would or better, I'm going to stay behind them until I want to do otherwise. They know I'm there because they put me there so the awareness and etiquette are all fair game.
I have no idea how I'd handle this in a place as windy as where you ride, however. We get high winds where I ride from time to time, but nothing systematic like that. I'd think you might be somewhere where there's some unspoken rules that wouldn't apply elsewhere. From SapInMyBlood 's post, I suspect that might be the case.
#24
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 7,887
Mentioned: 38 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6971 Post(s)
Liked 10,968 Times
in
4,692 Posts
3-4% less drag for the lead rider in a tight paceline depending which study you want to believe
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PevpVXelq8A
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...67610518306755
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PevpVXelq8A
https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...67610518306755
The cited article (and some cited pieces in its lit review) does suggest a <3% drag reduction for the leading rider in a two-person paceline, under very ideal conditions. (i.e., a drafting distance of a few inches.) I didn't see any numbers as high as 4%.
And at any rate, neither of these sources supports the conclusion of a 1-2 mph increase for a leading rider in a two-person paceline. Drag and speed are two different things, and we'd need someone who remembers more about their college physics to sort that out.
Likes For Koyote:
#25
Galveston County Texas
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: In The Wind
Posts: 33,222
Bikes: 02 GTO, 2011 Magnum
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1350 Post(s)
Liked 1,245 Times
in
623 Posts
The video is not a "study", and I'm not sure why the second "rider" is standing up with a kids' bike between his legs; so I wouldn't take it seriously.
The cited article (and some cited pieces in its lit review) does suggest a <3% drag reduction for the leading rider in a two-person paceline, under very ideal conditions. (i.e., a drafting distance of a few inches.) I didn't see any numbers as high as 4%.
And at any rate, neither of these sources supports the conclusion of a 1-2 mph increase for a leading rider in a two-person paceline. Drag and speed are two different things, and we'd need someone who remembers more about their college physics to sort that out.
The cited article (and some cited pieces in its lit review) does suggest a <3% drag reduction for the leading rider in a two-person paceline, under very ideal conditions. (i.e., a drafting distance of a few inches.) I didn't see any numbers as high as 4%.
And at any rate, neither of these sources supports the conclusion of a 1-2 mph increase for a leading rider in a two-person paceline. Drag and speed are two different things, and we'd need someone who remembers more about their college physics to sort that out.
__________________
Fred "The Real Fred"
Fred "The Real Fred"