Tubeless road observations
10-10-23, 12:34 PM
#26
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He is right in one sense- the fatter the tire, the easier it is to run tubeless as far as tubeless sealant working well. Tubeless sealant works better at lower PSI, like the MTB world. There is no getting around that. I have had tubeless sealant work on a 28mm road tire at 85 PSI (that dropped to 50) after Orange Seal sealed a puncture. I have had it work at 25 PSI (MTB) and even at 5 PSI (fatbike 4.8 tire) and it worked easier and faster than the road one. Personally, I would not bother with 25s going tubeless and I would not take 25s on any gravel anyway.
30/32 are my road tire size preference. The fatter the tire, the lower PSI you need or it becomes really really harsh. A 25mm tire at 80 will feel softer than a 32mm tire at 80. The 32 will feel far more bouncy/harsh. As far as gravel and MTB go, I only run tubeless for a decade or two. Gravel 42s at 35F/37R PSI and MTB 2.4s at 19-20F/24R PSI. I actually just put 35mm gravel tires on a road bike with 20mm rims and I think it may call for me to run 45-50 PSI. I'm just doing that for the winter. I'm basically completely out of the tube business now, having converted my last road bike. So all 9 bikes are tubeless- road, gravel, MTB, fat. I just don't run anything less than 30mm.
30/32 are my road tire size preference. The fatter the tire, the lower PSI you need or it becomes really really harsh. A 25mm tire at 80 will feel softer than a 32mm tire at 80. The 32 will feel far more bouncy/harsh. As far as gravel and MTB go, I only run tubeless for a decade or two. Gravel 42s at 35F/37R PSI and MTB 2.4s at 19-20F/24R PSI. I actually just put 35mm gravel tires on a road bike with 20mm rims and I think it may call for me to run 45-50 PSI. I'm just doing that for the winter. I'm basically completely out of the tube business now, having converted my last road bike. So all 9 bikes are tubeless- road, gravel, MTB, fat. I just don't run anything less than 30mm.
10-10-23, 01:58 PM
#27
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It will take a very clever Gus to get 28mm into 'Simply Red' and it will need an outright Magician to get 30/32 in. I know a lot of you are riding way more hardcore street carbon than this. I am not looking to get Divorced (again) so the n+1 thing won't solve this. Pragmatism will: 90psi most days. 100psi when I ride with Jim. No less than 80psi, ever.
10-10-23, 05:31 PM
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... ... so there's a lot I don't know about tubeless, but ... is it really so that you can flout the laws of nature and run 25mm tires at 65psi, or is it that you HAVE to run 25mm tires at 65psi, because with the first puncture, all your precioussss Stan's fluid is going to come squirting out of the breach at 100psi. Or even 80psi!! Comfort? Comfort?? On a balls to the wall, full carbon, race replica roadbike? Comfort??? WTAF!!
I happened to be at the LBS. One of those formerly local shops that Trek now owns. They've installed a new head manager and we were chatting while my (Trek) tandem was being worked on. I was curious, so I asked what kind of tubeless setup he runs, figuring he has access to pretty much anything he wants, whether Trek approved or not. To my surprise he said, "I don't run tubeless because I'm a roadie. Tubeless is an MTB thing". I actually pushed back, and he conceded that he has tried tubeless on gravel with a 38mm tire but he feels that below 38mm it gets tricky and 32mm is a hard limit for tubeless, regardless of where you want to ride.
That's a pro's take, just saying. One pro's take anyway. I've stayed mostly quiet as a vocal minority here try to stuff ever larger tires into frames that never expected anything bigger than 25mm. I've seen pressures drop to HALF of what was common before Jan Heinie (damn him) or is it Rene Herse, started The Madness. But, in their defense, I never heard them actually say that tubeless was good Road practice. I can usually tell when my 25mm Bonties lose 10psi because I find myself down a gear in places where I am usually in a higher one. IDK, I don't think that is because the rolling resistance got lower! As for comfort ... well I've got bikes with 50mm clinchers (tubed) that don't get 'squishy' until 25psi, but I usually keep them at 50psi to 60psi. Like God (Schwalbe) intended.
Seriously, I think many of you are willingly suspending disbelief to enter The Club. Have at it. I mostly won't say anything. But the convo with the manager at Trek was just this past weekend so it was fresh in mind. A little perspective now and then isn't a bad thing now and then, is it?
I happened to be at the LBS. One of those formerly local shops that Trek now owns. They've installed a new head manager and we were chatting while my (Trek) tandem was being worked on. I was curious, so I asked what kind of tubeless setup he runs, figuring he has access to pretty much anything he wants, whether Trek approved or not. To my surprise he said, "I don't run tubeless because I'm a roadie. Tubeless is an MTB thing". I actually pushed back, and he conceded that he has tried tubeless on gravel with a 38mm tire but he feels that below 38mm it gets tricky and 32mm is a hard limit for tubeless, regardless of where you want to ride.
That's a pro's take, just saying. One pro's take anyway. I've stayed mostly quiet as a vocal minority here try to stuff ever larger tires into frames that never expected anything bigger than 25mm. I've seen pressures drop to HALF of what was common before Jan Heinie (damn him) or is it Rene Herse, started The Madness. But, in their defense, I never heard them actually say that tubeless was good Road practice. I can usually tell when my 25mm Bonties lose 10psi because I find myself down a gear in places where I am usually in a higher one. IDK, I don't think that is because the rolling resistance got lower! As for comfort ... well I've got bikes with 50mm clinchers (tubed) that don't get 'squishy' until 25psi, but I usually keep them at 50psi to 60psi. Like God (Schwalbe) intended.
Seriously, I think many of you are willingly suspending disbelief to enter The Club. Have at it. I mostly won't say anything. But the convo with the manager at Trek was just this past weekend so it was fresh in mind. A little perspective now and then isn't a bad thing now and then, is it?
10-11-23, 12:09 AM
#29
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The guy you spoke to is wrong. Tubeless works fine with 25mm tires and 100 psi (which is still fastest on a decent road, that is true); I've rode that for over 15.000km now. There IS a learning curve and pro mechanics are adapting, too, now everyone is switching to tubeless.
Sure, how likely it is to seal depends how thick and sturdy the casing is. GP5000 TLR (old model) it's probably 90% of the time and I wore out a set without having to stop once, GP5000S TR (new model) it's a bit more delicate and I carry dynaplugs and a repair and inflate cartridge in the saddlebag, which work. Still faster than putting in a tube, and you benefit from the low rolling resistance. Gash the sidewall and you need to use plugs (riding offroad on your CF race bike with high pressure 25mm tires is stupid, but I have to remind myself now and then).
Paperthin timetrial type tubeless tires (Vittoria Corsa Speed TL, Veloflex Record TLR) will most likely not seal anything really, and you will have to use plugs in case of puncture. These are cool but not suitable for normal road riding.
What the pro mechanics, who have to juggle lots of wheelsets are doing, is not relying on sealant alone so much, but on inserts like Vittoria's air liners, because it's not as messy and time-consuming if you have to juggle fifty wheelsets, there's no RR increase, and if the hole doesn't seal at all you can ride on them for up to 50km, ample time to get a new wheel.
If you’re aiming purely to go fast, tubeless is where it's at - albeit for a different reason than for those using thick, low pressure tires for puncture resistance and comfort - namely, the RR of tubeless racing tires can only be matched by the very best of tube type tyres with the best (thinnest) of latex tubes. Between those two options, tubeless is a lot more practical as it can be set up with a run flat system and has a chance of sealing.
Sure, how likely it is to seal depends how thick and sturdy the casing is. GP5000 TLR (old model) it's probably 90% of the time and I wore out a set without having to stop once, GP5000S TR (new model) it's a bit more delicate and I carry dynaplugs and a repair and inflate cartridge in the saddlebag, which work. Still faster than putting in a tube, and you benefit from the low rolling resistance. Gash the sidewall and you need to use plugs (riding offroad on your CF race bike with high pressure 25mm tires is stupid, but I have to remind myself now and then).
Paperthin timetrial type tubeless tires (Vittoria Corsa Speed TL, Veloflex Record TLR) will most likely not seal anything really, and you will have to use plugs in case of puncture. These are cool but not suitable for normal road riding.
What the pro mechanics, who have to juggle lots of wheelsets are doing, is not relying on sealant alone so much, but on inserts like Vittoria's air liners, because it's not as messy and time-consuming if you have to juggle fifty wheelsets, there's no RR increase, and if the hole doesn't seal at all you can ride on them for up to 50km, ample time to get a new wheel.
If you’re aiming purely to go fast, tubeless is where it's at - albeit for a different reason than for those using thick, low pressure tires for puncture resistance and comfort - namely, the RR of tubeless racing tires can only be matched by the very best of tube type tyres with the best (thinnest) of latex tubes. Between those two options, tubeless is a lot more practical as it can be set up with a run flat system and has a chance of sealing.
10-11-23, 10:05 AM
#30
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The guy you spoke to is wrong. Tubeless works fine with 25mm tires and 100 psi (which is still fastest on a decent road, that is true); I've rode that for over 15.000km now. There IS a learning curve and pro mechanics are adapting, too, now everyone is switching to tubeless.
Sure, how likely it is to seal depends how thick and sturdy the casing is. GP5000 TLR (old model) it's probably 90% of the time and I wore out a set without having to stop once, GP5000S TR (new model) it's a bit more delicate and I carry dynaplugs and a repair and inflate cartridge in the saddlebag, which work. Still faster than putting in a tube, and you benefit from the low rolling resistance. Gash the sidewall and you need to use plugs (riding offroad on your CF race bike with high pressure 25mm tires is stupid, but I have to remind myself now and then).
Paperthin timetrial type tubeless tires (Vittoria Corsa Speed TL, Veloflex Record TLR) will most likely not seal anything really, and you will have to use plugs in case of puncture. These are cool but not suitable for normal road riding.
What the pro mechanics, who have to juggle lots of wheelsets are doing, is not relying on sealant alone so much, but on inserts like Vittoria's air liners, because it's not as messy and time-consuming if you have to juggle fifty wheelsets, there's no RR increase, and if the hole doesn't seal at all you can ride on them for up to 50km, ample time to get a new wheel.
If you’re aiming purely to go fast, tubeless is where it's at - albeit for a different reason than for those using thick, low pressure tires for puncture resistance and comfort - namely, the RR of tubeless racing tires can only be matched by the very best of tube type tyres with the best (thinnest) of latex tubes. Between those two options, tubeless is a lot more practical as it can be set up with a run flat system and has a chance of sealing.
Sure, how likely it is to seal depends how thick and sturdy the casing is. GP5000 TLR (old model) it's probably 90% of the time and I wore out a set without having to stop once, GP5000S TR (new model) it's a bit more delicate and I carry dynaplugs and a repair and inflate cartridge in the saddlebag, which work. Still faster than putting in a tube, and you benefit from the low rolling resistance. Gash the sidewall and you need to use plugs (riding offroad on your CF race bike with high pressure 25mm tires is stupid, but I have to remind myself now and then).
Paperthin timetrial type tubeless tires (Vittoria Corsa Speed TL, Veloflex Record TLR) will most likely not seal anything really, and you will have to use plugs in case of puncture. These are cool but not suitable for normal road riding.
What the pro mechanics, who have to juggle lots of wheelsets are doing, is not relying on sealant alone so much, but on inserts like Vittoria's air liners, because it's not as messy and time-consuming if you have to juggle fifty wheelsets, there's no RR increase, and if the hole doesn't seal at all you can ride on them for up to 50km, ample time to get a new wheel.
If you’re aiming purely to go fast, tubeless is where it's at - albeit for a different reason than for those using thick, low pressure tires for puncture resistance and comfort - namely, the RR of tubeless racing tires can only be matched by the very best of tube type tyres with the best (thinnest) of latex tubes. Between those two options, tubeless is a lot more practical as it can be set up with a run flat system and has a chance of sealing.
To my mind, any tire that requires the use of liquid sealant or it will fail is a non starter.
When it comes to rolling resistance, I'll put my normal GP5000 with 36 gram TPU tubes against a tubeless ready version with sealant any day of the week.
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10-11-23, 10:21 AM
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A tyre that goes flat with any small puncture and requires removal to patch or replace a tube is a non-starter for me.
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10-11-23, 10:29 AM
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The GP5000 TLR did not require sealant to work as per the manufacturer claim and practical observation, just to have a chance to seal punctures, obviously. Was hard to fit and heavier than subsequent GP5000 TR and customers didn't really care for the ability to work without sealant.
Anyway, tubeless with minimal (just a slight coating to fit the tire) sealant and tubeless inserts is how the pro team mechanics have decided to do most of their tubeless setups because juggling sealant in fifty bikes is too much of a hassle. A reasonable option for anyone juggling a lot of wheelsets.
Personally I can't imagine changing tubes next to the road anymore 🤷
Anyway, tubeless with minimal (just a slight coating to fit the tire) sealant and tubeless inserts is how the pro team mechanics have decided to do most of their tubeless setups because juggling sealant in fifty bikes is too much of a hassle. A reasonable option for anyone juggling a lot of wheelsets.
Personally I can't imagine changing tubes next to the road anymore 🤷
10-11-23, 11:13 AM
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In fact, it's part of many tire's instructions to go for a ride as soon as the sealant is added and it makes sense. Tiny air leaks caused by imperfection in the tire or the rim will be clogged by the sealant.
10-11-23, 11:32 AM
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I still use 25mm@100psi tubed tires on my road bikes, and I'm in a stable (but sometimes volatile) relationship with 32-38 mm tubeless tires on my gravel bikes. But, after 6 months of relative happiness, I went through a messy divorce with 25 mm tubeless road tires. Reconciliation with road tubeless is not in my future.
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10-12-23, 08:04 AM
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10-12-23, 08:26 AM
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The sticky mess could be considered a form of deviancy, but the inability to seal holes without losing substantial pressure, the re-opening of holes when tires were re-inflated to full pressure, and the difficulty of mounting tires were violation of the vows we took.
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