does 3x require more shifting than 2x?
#176
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It is more time consuming to change disc brakes pads and do the purge than changing v brakes pads. Most people won’t feel comfortable changing disc brake pads and the possibility of having to bleed a hydraulic disc brake system, and will need maintenance assistance. Rim brakes are relatively simple to swap over brake pads yourself without complicated tools etc.When comparing the different frame and fork construction methods, the weight difference can be anywhere between 300g to 500g. Though disc technology is advancing rapidly, it is still slightly heavier when looking at the complete system. Whether you are replacing individual components, full groupsets or complete bikes, the disc brake version is almost always more expensive. Do you change your own disc brake pads Mr Hski ?
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It is more time consuming to change disc brakes pads and do the purge than changing v brakes pads. Most people won’t feel comfortable changing disc brake pads and the possibility of having to bleed a hydraulic disc brake system, and will need maintenance assistance. Rim brakes are relatively simple to swap over brake pads yourself without complicated tools etc.When comparing the different frame and fork construction methods, the weight difference can be anywhere between 300g to 500g. Though disc technology is advancing rapidly, it is still slightly heavier when looking at the complete system. Whether you are replacing individual components, full groupsets or complete bikes, the disc brake version is almost always more expensive. Do you change your own disc brake pads Mr Hski ?
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What I am here for, is TRUTH.
Your bikes are super---the best For You. Don’t try to say they are ”The Best.” Explain why You like them and how they serve Your needs, without pretending the whole world needs to agree with you.
You have a stable of really beautiful bikes there. I would be proud if I owned them (though I am no longer fit enough (and possibly never was skilled enough) to use them to their full potential.) They are beautiful and functional bikes which suit you quite well, you claim (and I am not disputing that claim.) Just stop trying to pretend they are the categorical, in-every-situation, BEST. They are the best For You. In part they are the best for you because you like them the best.
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#181
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Mavic XM819 UST Tubeless rims laced to DT240S hubs on the Kona and the Scapin, Mavic XM819 UST Tubeless rims laced to Shimano XT 780 T hubs on the Merida and Mavic Crossmax SL SSC on the Jamis.
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#182
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Shop mechanic here. Will be working on this stuff today...
Manufacturers should stick to simple technology that works, instead of extraneous complicated gimmicks. Progress I guess.
- Disc brake systems overall are heavier and pad replacements are more difficult, expensive and time consuming. The frustrating incompatibilities between a multitude of systems doesn't help.
- Most of the riding public is not capable of replacing disc pads, whereas they would take on rim pad replacements based on experience or after watching a quick video. The cartridge-based pad systems make rim brake pad replacements simpler.
- Hydraulic bleeds: very few of the riding public will take this on.
- Most of the riding public would be better served with rim brakes due to the simplicity, lower weight and lower cost. Plus not everyone is riding with camping gear down big descents in the rain; the extra braking performance is just not worth it.
- Suspension: for most riders an unnecessary burden. Extra weight, complexity, and especially cost. Shedding the extraneous suspension gear would allow manufacturers to put more money into some areas that really matter, such as wheels.
- Tubeless: Your average rider has maybe one flat per year, which is longer than the maintenance interval for tubeless (dried out sealant). Plus the extra PITA on setup and the impossibility of roadside repairs.
- Internal cable routing. It looks kewl, saves you .001 watts of air resistance, and it ties you inexorably to your shop for the simplest of maintenance items. $300 to swap out a stem?
- Yet another cassette cog every 7 years? Enough already.
Manufacturers should stick to simple technology that works, instead of extraneous complicated gimmicks. Progress I guess.
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#183
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Looks like job security. Just like cars have become more complex requiring technical expertise. Then there is my 71 car that I can wrench on versus my ‘17. The 71 works fine but prefer the ‘17 just like my 2020 bike over the ‘82. The new stuff goes to the shop. It’s the price of ownership and choosing not to educate myself when I could be doing something else.
I can replace my Shimano disc pads in about 2 mins.
I can replace my Shimano disc pads in about 2 mins.
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Road 🚴🏾♂️ & Mountain 🚵🏾♂️
#184
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Good thread and lots of good discussion. But please avoid insults. Thanks
Stan
Stan
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Shop mechanic here. Will be working on this stuff today...
Manufacturers should stick to simple technology that works, instead of extraneous complicated gimmicks. Progress I guess.
- Disc brake systems overall are heavier and pad replacements are more difficult, expensive and time consuming. The frustrating incompatibilities between a multitude of systems doesn't help.
- Most of the riding public is not capable of replacing disc pads, whereas they would take on rim pad replacements based on experience or after watching a quick video. The cartridge-based pad systems make rim brake pad replacements simpler.
- Hydraulic bleeds: very few of the riding public will take this on.
- Most of the riding public would be better served with rim brakes due to the simplicity, lower weight and lower cost. Plus not everyone is riding with camping gear down big descents in the rain; the extra braking performance is just not worth it.
- Suspension: for most riders an unnecessary burden. Extra weight, complexity, and especially cost. Shedding the extraneous suspension gear would allow manufacturers to put more money into some areas that really matter, such as wheels.
- Tubeless: Your average rider has maybe one flat per year, which is longer than the maintenance interval for tubeless (dried out sealant). Plus the extra PITA on setup and the impossibility of roadside repairs.
- Internal cable routing. It looks kewl, saves you .001 watts of air resistance, and it ties you inexorably to your shop for the simplest of maintenance items. $300 to swap out a stem?
- Yet another cassette cog every 7 years? Enough already.
Manufacturers should stick to simple technology that works, instead of extraneous complicated gimmicks. Progress I guess.
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#186
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As for different systems needing different pads .... yeah. Same with rim brakes. I have had sidepull, centerpull, and V-brakes in my stable at one time. Guess what? Different techniques needed for each. Different pads needed for each. None of them difficult at all.
Are disc systems heavier ... a bit. But the whole "Only a light bike is a good bike thing" is a marketing ploy. Racers like light bikes ... but racers like discs. Everyday riders .... the "light bike" fetish is sort of comical. Most riders could stand to lose some weight ... and of course, we are all carrying tools, tubes or patches/plugs, CO2 or pumps, food, water .... saving a few hundred grams is not that big a deal.
I like light bikes but the "added weight" of discs is a non-issue. Anyone who claims his or her ride was ruined by an extra 300 grams is flat lying or delusional.
Like the man said, nice attempt at maintaining job security.
Lots of people ride tubeless off-road and find it a tremendous boon (you did notice how much of the discussion was about mountain bikes, right?) and a lot of people ride tubeless on the road and find it ... a huge boon. Lower pressure, no pinch flats, self-sealing punctures, and should something go wrong, screw in a plug, pump up the tire, and roll away. I am not sure where you live, but here in reality, a lot of people use tubeless with no problems. Sorry for you......
.
Bikes have gotten Way better since I started riding. And funny enough, the stuff I started riding ... single-speed coaster brake, three-speed IGH with dual rim brakes .... it is all around still, and still works. And now we have so many other options.
Please ... get back in your Ford Model T and drive back into the past. The rest of us are fine here.
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Are disc systems heavier ... a bit. But the whole "Only a light bike is a good bike thing" is a marketing ploy. Racers like light bikes ... but racers like discs. Everyday riders .... the "light bike" fetish is sort of comical. Most riders could stand to lose some weight ... and of course, we are all carrying tools, tubes or patches/plugs, CO2 or pumps, food, water .... saving a few hundred grams is not that big a deal.
I like light bikes but the "added weight" of discs is a non-issue. Anyone who claims his or her ride was ruined by an extra 300 grams is flat lying or delusional.
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#188
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I used to get about one flat per month on average with tubed road tyres. So I was well above your estimated average.
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#189
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This is another example of the old attitude that “30 years ago (when I got into bikes) we reached the pinnacle of bike development. Everything introduced prior to that time is useful and worth having, but everything that’s come out since then is a waste. Nobody needs any of these newfangled gimmicks. The only stuff that’s not newfangled gimmicks is whatever I had on my bikes back in my heyday.”
Nine, ten, or thirteen cogs are unnecessary? Why are seven not too many? What makes that the perfect number? Why even have a derailleur? Single speed is light, durable, simple, and dead reliable, so is everyone with five or more gears being duped? What about cantilever brakes? You’re saying they’re a good idea, because they work better than center pull calipers on a mountain bike, but hydraulic disc brakes are too heavy, expensive, and difficult to maintain, so never mind their benefits; not worth having?
Disc brakes too heavy and complicated, not to mention hard to maintain. But 3x drivetrain superior to a 1x and wide range cassette. What am I missing?
Nine, ten, or thirteen cogs are unnecessary? Why are seven not too many? What makes that the perfect number? Why even have a derailleur? Single speed is light, durable, simple, and dead reliable, so is everyone with five or more gears being duped? What about cantilever brakes? You’re saying they’re a good idea, because they work better than center pull calipers on a mountain bike, but hydraulic disc brakes are too heavy, expensive, and difficult to maintain, so never mind their benefits; not worth having?
Disc brakes too heavy and complicated, not to mention hard to maintain. But 3x drivetrain superior to a 1x and wide range cassette. What am I missing?
Last edited by Broctoon; 09-24-23 at 02:31 PM.
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There is a contingent of our BF community who are similar to freshly hatched birds imprinted on the first bikes that impressed them like the duckling who thinks their mother is a Labrador Retriever. It's the same argument every time any newer tech discussion beyond 1975. I understand the collector/hoarder aspect of the C&V community but not the Luddite view that all improvements since their perceived golden era of bikes are useless or a detriment and only a result of Big Bikes marketing campaigns and an unsuspecting public.
Steel vs Carbon
Friction vs Indexed
Tubular vs Everything else
3x vs 2x
36 Spokes vs Less
Rim vs Disc
Ride what you want, but attempting to convince others that these older technologies are superior is bizarre. An old mechanic telling non-truths and exaggerations to make a point looks sad.
There is a contingent of old-timer C&V riders who I sometimes see at a local cycling cafe or on a popular cycling route. Beautifully restored dream machines and a happy group of guys enjoying a weekend ride, telling stories and getting some exercise. They are not riding these C&V bikes because of there performance advantages but rather as part of the hobby of collecting bicycles. They don’t frown on people riding modern bikes nor do those who ride modern bikes look down on them.
I am amazed every time I go for a ride the improvements in bike tech. Take a new S-Works Roubaix for a spin followed up any 70’s era bike and honestly declare you would prefer riding the vintage rig on your next long weekend ride. If your answer is yes you would be in a extremely limited cohort, for a reason!
Steel vs Carbon
Friction vs Indexed
Tubular vs Everything else
3x vs 2x
36 Spokes vs Less
Rim vs Disc
Ride what you want, but attempting to convince others that these older technologies are superior is bizarre. An old mechanic telling non-truths and exaggerations to make a point looks sad.
There is a contingent of old-timer C&V riders who I sometimes see at a local cycling cafe or on a popular cycling route. Beautifully restored dream machines and a happy group of guys enjoying a weekend ride, telling stories and getting some exercise. They are not riding these C&V bikes because of there performance advantages but rather as part of the hobby of collecting bicycles. They don’t frown on people riding modern bikes nor do those who ride modern bikes look down on them.
I am amazed every time I go for a ride the improvements in bike tech. Take a new S-Works Roubaix for a spin followed up any 70’s era bike and honestly declare you would prefer riding the vintage rig on your next long weekend ride. If your answer is yes you would be in a extremely limited cohort, for a reason!
Last edited by Atlas Shrugged; 09-24-23 at 02:28 PM.
#191
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This is another example of the old attitude that “30 years ago (when I got into bikes) we reached the pinnacle of bike development. Everything introduced prior to that time is useful and worth having, but everything that’s come out since then is a waste. Nobody needs any of these newfangled gimmicks. The only stuff that’s not newfangled gimmicks is whatever I had on my bikes back in my heyday.”
Nine, ten, or thirteen cogs are unnecessary? Why are seven not too many? What makes that the perfect number? Why even have a derailleur? Single speed is light, durable, simple, and dead reliable, so is everyone with five or more gears being duped? What about cantilever brakes? You’re saying they’re a good idea, because they work better than center pull calipers on a mountain bike, but hydraulic disc brakes are too heavy, expensive, and difficult to maintain, so never mind their benefits; not worth having?
Disc brakes too heavy and complicated, not to mention hard to maintain. But 3x drivetrain superior to a 1x with wide range cassette. What am I missing?
Nine, ten, or thirteen cogs are unnecessary? Why are seven not too many? What makes that the perfect number? Why even have a derailleur? Single speed is light, durable, simple, and dead reliable, so is everyone with five or more gears being duped? What about cantilever brakes? You’re saying they’re a good idea, because they work better than center pull calipers on a mountain bike, but hydraulic disc brakes are too heavy, expensive, and difficult to maintain, so never mind their benefits; not worth having?
Disc brakes too heavy and complicated, not to mention hard to maintain. But 3x drivetrain superior to a 1x with wide range cassette. What am I missing?
Regarding brakes, the ubrake was a good thing but short lived. I know people who still have magura brakes on their bikes. I also still have a 32 years old hybrid bike with center pull brakes which stops fine. People who were used to service and change disc brakes have probably done it when disc brakes appeared on the market which is why they can do it quickly.
#192
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There is guideline that is pertinent: a technology change that's not backwards compatible had better deliver a big improvement.
Switching from N cogs to N+1 cogs arguably lies in the "compatibility breaking change with minor improvement" category.
#193
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BS to that. I've repaired plenty of tubeless tyres by the roadside. Mostly mtb in the UST era without sealant. But I have had to use the odd Dynaplug on road tyres in the last 3 years. You can always fit a tube as a last resort - which I have never had to actually do with any tubeless setup.
I used to get about one flat per month on average with tubed road tyres. So I was well above your estimated average.
I used to get about one flat per month on average with tubed road tyres. So I was well above your estimated average.
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#194
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I worked for 50 years, most of it as an auto mechanic and the last 30 years as a new car dealer diagnostic tech. There are plenty of long term mechanic/techs in the biz who are resistant to anything new and will speak out against it. There are also plenty who don't know what they are talking about.
When I started working on cars there were no computers, let alone all the other changes that happened since the early 70s. I was the first at my dealer to be electric car certified. Also diesel certified. Embrace the change, no sense sniveling about it. See the viability in something different, not just your prejudices.
When I started working on cars there were no computers, let alone all the other changes that happened since the early 70s. I was the first at my dealer to be electric car certified. Also diesel certified. Embrace the change, no sense sniveling about it. See the viability in something different, not just your prejudices.
#195
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#196
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Lots of people have already informed you that changing disc brake pads is a trivial 5 min job requiring no special tools or skill. Just accept it, learn and move on.
#197
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I worked for 50 years, most of it as an auto mechanic and the last 30 years as a new car dealer diagnostic tech. There are plenty of long term mechanic/techs in the biz who are resistant to anything new and will speak out against it. There are also plenty who don't know what they are talking about.
When I started working on cars there were no computers, let alone all the other changes that happened since the early 70s. I was the first at my dealer to be electric car certified. Also diesel certified. Embrace the change, no sense sniveling about it. See the viability in something different, not just your prejudices.
When I started working on cars there were no computers, let alone all the other changes that happened since the early 70s. I was the first at my dealer to be electric car certified. Also diesel certified. Embrace the change, no sense sniveling about it. See the viability in something different, not just your prejudices.
#198
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The industry sycophants and gullible early adopters are easily riled!
Extending their arguments, we absolutely need new tech on road bikes such as:
Extending their arguments, we absolutely need new tech on road bikes such as:
- 15-speed cassettes with a 8-50 cog range
- Suspension forks
- Rear suspension
- Electrically-operated dropper posts
- 52mm tires pumped to 20psi
#199
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The industry sycophants and gullible early adopters are easily riled!
Extending their arguments, we absolutely need new tech on road bikes such as:
Extending their arguments, we absolutely need new tech on road bikes such as:
- 15-speed cassettes with a 8-50 cog range
- Suspension forks
- Rear suspension
- Electrically-operated dropper posts
- 52mm tires pumped to 20psi
So anyone who buys a new bike is now an “early adopter”? What a load of BS.
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The industry sycophants and gullible early adopters are easily riled!
Extending their arguments, we absolutely need new tech on road bikes such as:
Extending their arguments, we absolutely need new tech on road bikes such as:
- 15-speed cassettes with a 8-50 cog range
- Suspension forks
- Rear suspension
- Electrically-operated dropper posts
- 52mm tires pumped to 20psi
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