Cycling and hand signals
08-09-21, 03:57 PM
#202
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https://www.renehersecycles.com/whic...0left%20(above).
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It's like riding a bicycle
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08-09-21, 04:17 PM
#203
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Wait, there was an op in this thread? You actually claimed that signalling in the US was left handed, and I posted the NHTSA link to show an approved right hand signal. The fact that the op mentioned an unapproved right hand signal was forgotten by me long ago. I see someone with their right hand raised, I assume they're taking an oath.
Last edited by livedarklions; 08-11-21 at 10:33 AM.
08-09-21, 04:48 PM
#204
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Can't help losing you.
Rear brakes are close to useless, the more so the harder the braking. Front brakes need the best possible modulation, quickest access and sometimes greatest hand strength. That means right-handed people are best served braking front with the right hand. Other considerations could overrule that but the main reason so many bikes are set up right-to-rear is the fear of endos from locking the front wheel, the idea being that the stronger hand should control the weaker brake. That, of course, is paranoia based on fiction. I tear around on a single speed that only has one brake and can't raise the rear tire off the pavement if I try, and if I could, and if there were a rear brake, it wouldn't be close to useless, it would be completely useless. I'm sorry that loses you but it remains logical: it's best for the most capable hand to control the most capable brake, but whichever hand is chosen that hand should stay near that brake lever as much as possible. Signaling with both arms means that for some turns braking simultaneously invokes the front brake, other turns the rear. Consistent brake response mandates always braking with the same brake, which means always signaling with the other arm. So which of your two arms is the smarter choice for signaling and which for braking? It's not complicated. Your left arm, on right-drive roads, is always more visible, sometimes incomparably more visible. That means the strongest, surest, best controlled braking while signaling is right-to-front braking.
I don't have statistics. All I know is that I and many knowledgeable cyclists brake right-to-front. That's intelligent for right-handed people even if they never signal. It's intelligent for everybody that signals consistently with the left arm (unless they ride so slowly that rear braking is sufficient). The rest...
Rear brakes are close to useless, the more so the harder the braking. Front brakes need the best possible modulation, quickest access and sometimes greatest hand strength. That means right-handed people are best served braking front with the right hand. Other considerations could overrule that but the main reason so many bikes are set up right-to-rear is the fear of endos from locking the front wheel, the idea being that the stronger hand should control the weaker brake. That, of course, is paranoia based on fiction. I tear around on a single speed that only has one brake and can't raise the rear tire off the pavement if I try, and if I could, and if there were a rear brake, it wouldn't be close to useless, it would be completely useless. I'm sorry that loses you but it remains logical: it's best for the most capable hand to control the most capable brake, but whichever hand is chosen that hand should stay near that brake lever as much as possible. Signaling with both arms means that for some turns braking simultaneously invokes the front brake, other turns the rear. Consistent brake response mandates always braking with the same brake, which means always signaling with the other arm. So which of your two arms is the smarter choice for signaling and which for braking? It's not complicated. Your left arm, on right-drive roads, is always more visible, sometimes incomparably more visible. That means the strongest, surest, best controlled braking while signaling is right-to-front braking.
I don't have statistics. All I know is that I and many knowledgeable cyclists brake right-to-front. That's intelligent for right-handed people even if they never signal. It's intelligent for everybody that signals consistently with the left arm (unless they ride so slowly that rear braking is sufficient). The rest...
Must be tough for you, having such an incompetent left hand. Anyway, this is absurd, if I'm braking, I'm almost certainly not signalling a turn. If you actually look at state laws, they (almost?) all state that you shouldn't signal if doing so requires you to keep your hands off the bars when it's unsafe to do so. I throw the signal before the turn then put the hand back on the bar for the turn.
And the logic on the right turn signal being more visible to drivers on your left ignores the relevant probabilities -- it's less visible to drivers on my right, and those are really the only ones that pose a threat to me if I'm taking a right turn. If the driver on my right doesn't see the signal and runs me over, it will be of little consolation to me that I made it easier for the guy on my left to see the signal.
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08-09-21, 04:50 PM
#205
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08-09-21, 04:56 PM
#206
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Not really. OP set the topic in the last sentence of post #1 as whether op was right that right arm out is the best way to signal a right turn.
08-09-21, 04:58 PM
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We had a small family gathering yesterday, and my nephew, who's 11 or so and has recently discovered The Sandlot, kept reciting quotes from the movie. It was cute and brought on some nostalgia... until he didn't stop and it became ******g tedious.
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08-09-21, 05:07 PM
#208
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08-09-21, 06:24 PM
#209
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You have never driven a military vehicle or a large truck.. I live by a defense highway, yes I have been passed by Strykers. And we get foreign military
i go by NATO rules.
i go by NATO rules.
08-09-21, 06:25 PM
#210
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You have never driven a military vehicle or a large truck.. I live by a defense highway, yes I have been passed by Strykers. And we get foreign military
i go by NATO rules.
i go by NATO rules.
08-09-21, 06:53 PM
#211
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08-09-21, 07:00 PM
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I give the standard left hand out with hand up signal for my right turns and always back it up through my take-a-look mirror to verify the lane is clear to move into.
hand signals
hand signals
gm
08-09-21, 08:24 PM
#213
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08-09-21, 08:45 PM
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JFC people.
08-09-21, 08:52 PM
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Must be tough for you, having such an incompetent left hand. Anyway, this is absurd, if I'm braking, I'm almost certainly not signalling a turn. If you actually look at state laws, they (almost?) all state that you shouldn't signal if doing so requires you to keep your hands off the bars when it's unsafe to do so. I throw the signal before the turn then put the hand back on the bar for the turn.
And the logic on the right turn signal being more visible to drivers on your left ignores the relevant probabilities -- it's less visible to drivers on my right, and those are really the only ones that pose a threat to me if I'm taking a right turn. If the driver on my right doesn't see the signal and runs me over, it will be of little consolation to me that I made it easier for the guy on my left to see the signal.
And the logic on the right turn signal being more visible to drivers on your left ignores the relevant probabilities -- it's less visible to drivers on my right, and those are really the only ones that pose a threat to me if I'm taking a right turn. If the driver on my right doesn't see the signal and runs me over, it will be of little consolation to me that I made it easier for the guy on my left to see the signal.
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08-09-21, 09:35 PM
#216
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Thank you
This has been a useful thread for me to think about what I do and why I do it. Here's where I'm at now:
1. Signaling is a courtesy to smooth traffic flow; it is not a safety practice. Any road user who stakes their life and limb solely on the presence or absence of a signal is not operating defensively. And not operating defensively increases your risk, more so when not enclosed in a one ton steel structure.
2. My objective is to communicate my intentions and awareness to road operators around me as a courtesy because I'd like them to do the same for me. (I was raised before the "Golden Rule" was "he who has the gold makes the rules".)
Kaffee: Cpl. Barnes, turn to the page in this book that tells me how to get to the mess hall.
Barnes: Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.
Kaffee: You mean the whole time you've been at Gitmo, you've never had a meal?
Barnes: No, sir. Three squares a day, sir.
Kaffee: Then how did you find the mess hall if it wasn't in this book?
Barnes: Well, sir, like everybody else, I just followed the crowd at chow time, sir.
Kaffee: No further questions.
(From "A Few Good Men".)
Written rules are not what life's about. And we brake them frequently with no real consequence... Mr. Newton's Laws, on the other hand, are vigorously enforced without fail in all jurisdictions.
1. Signaling is a courtesy to smooth traffic flow; it is not a safety practice. Any road user who stakes their life and limb solely on the presence or absence of a signal is not operating defensively. And not operating defensively increases your risk, more so when not enclosed in a one ton steel structure.
2. My objective is to communicate my intentions and awareness to road operators around me as a courtesy because I'd like them to do the same for me. (I was raised before the "Golden Rule" was "he who has the gold makes the rules".)
- If I need my hands on the bars, that always takes priority so there are times I don't signal.
- When turning right, I use my right hand to point, and I use my right hand down to indicate that I'm slowing. Mirror image on the left.
- I often point straight forward at intersections so there is no question what I'm going to do.
- When a cyclist, motorcyclist or car passes me, I turn my head when they are about 50 feet back and do a "hi sign" without moving my hands from the bars. Big truck coming up? As a group, they are the best drivers on the road, and I'll wave with my left hand when they're about 200 feet back to let them know I know they are there.
- If I'm stopped and there is a "nicehole", I plant both feet on the ground and cross my arms.
Kaffee: Cpl. Barnes, turn to the page in this book that tells me how to get to the mess hall.
Barnes: Lt. Kaffee, that's not in the book, sir.
Kaffee: You mean the whole time you've been at Gitmo, you've never had a meal?
Barnes: No, sir. Three squares a day, sir.
Kaffee: Then how did you find the mess hall if it wasn't in this book?
Barnes: Well, sir, like everybody else, I just followed the crowd at chow time, sir.
Kaffee: No further questions.
(From "A Few Good Men".)
Written rules are not what life's about. And we brake them frequently with no real consequence... Mr. Newton's Laws, on the other hand, are vigorously enforced without fail in all jurisdictions.
08-10-21, 01:46 AM
#217
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I've never really thought about signalling much per se, I just do what comes naturally as a road user.
If I'm in traffic I will signal my intent, left or right - it'll be pointing, no rigidly horizontal straight arm or anything like that, just an arm out pointing to where I intend to go. Sometimes, those signals will be very brief because I'm moving quite quickly, hands on brakes etc leaning into the turn. The times I pay particular attention to my signals are when on a higher speed National road that has an off-ramp and I'm continuing straight ahead - I'll keep my signal for the first half of that crossing.
When in Groups we tend to wave vehicles past when we see the road is clear for them to overtake us and I move into single file too, although most here prefer to just wave cars through. We point out any hazards in the road to each other as is normal but other than that, no specific signalling really.
When I've ridden in Cities, like Amsterdam, it has always been a bit kamikaze from many other cyclists - they generally follow the excellent cycle paths and traffic lights etc but beyond that it is seemingly a lawless free-for-all for many interspersed with many tourists who clearly don't cycle very often so can be somewhat interesting. Copenhagen on the other hand, perfect cycling infrastructure and most strictly abiding to all rules of safe conduct and signalling - my stepson who lives there says heavy fines are regularly dished out for those who don't. As such, it is a really great place to ride. London? Not so friendly for cyclists, hated riding there when it was my home, cyclists are not welcome by many motorists some of whom couldn't care less what signals you might employ and begrudge you impeding upon their progress.
If I'm in traffic I will signal my intent, left or right - it'll be pointing, no rigidly horizontal straight arm or anything like that, just an arm out pointing to where I intend to go. Sometimes, those signals will be very brief because I'm moving quite quickly, hands on brakes etc leaning into the turn. The times I pay particular attention to my signals are when on a higher speed National road that has an off-ramp and I'm continuing straight ahead - I'll keep my signal for the first half of that crossing.
When in Groups we tend to wave vehicles past when we see the road is clear for them to overtake us and I move into single file too, although most here prefer to just wave cars through. We point out any hazards in the road to each other as is normal but other than that, no specific signalling really.
When I've ridden in Cities, like Amsterdam, it has always been a bit kamikaze from many other cyclists - they generally follow the excellent cycle paths and traffic lights etc but beyond that it is seemingly a lawless free-for-all for many interspersed with many tourists who clearly don't cycle very often so can be somewhat interesting. Copenhagen on the other hand, perfect cycling infrastructure and most strictly abiding to all rules of safe conduct and signalling - my stepson who lives there says heavy fines are regularly dished out for those who don't. As such, it is a really great place to ride. London? Not so friendly for cyclists, hated riding there when it was my home, cyclists are not welcome by many motorists some of whom couldn't care less what signals you might employ and begrudge you impeding upon their progress.
08-10-21, 02:38 AM
#218
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i don't release my hands from the bars ever unless it's absolutely safe and the situation looks like it would actually benefit from it. i'd much rather just slow down.
08-10-21, 04:00 AM
#219
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I suspect that you are a skilled enough rider to throw a hand signal - with either hand - sufficient to clearly indicate your upcoming turn, and at the same time, use the opposite hand to apply the brake to slow down for the upcoming turn, if that was required. This is not really that complicated or difficult.
I'd put it another way, I'm skilled enough that I can time my signals so there isn't a conflict. I'm pretty sure almost every state has a variation of the following:
"Bicyclists intending to turn right or left shall not be required to give a continuous hand or arm signal if the hand is needed in the control or operation of the bicycle."
I cannot recall a single time when this has been an actual conflict. What I have been on are roads so rough that taking hands off the bars is a really bad idea, and I will be extremely careful about changes when I know my signalling abilities are compromised by that.
I think if you look back at this, you'll see that right hand brake guy really doesn't do much riding in contexts where signalling in a hurry happens very often. I can't take someone seriously who describes city riding as barely being cycling, riding in a city at speed is some of the most skilled riding out there.
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08-10-21, 07:25 AM
#220
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I'd put it another way, I'm skilled enough that I can time my signals so there isn't a conflict. I'm pretty sure almost every state has a variation of the following:
"Bicyclists intending to turn right or left shall not be required to give a continuous hand or arm signal if the hand is needed in the control or operation of the bicycle."
I cannot recall a single time when this has been an actual conflict. What I have been on are roads so rough that taking hands off the bars is a really bad idea, and I will be extremely careful about changes when I know my signalling abilities are compromised by that.
I think if you look back at this, you'll see that right hand brake guy really doesn't do much riding in contexts where signalling in a hurry happens very often. I can't take someone seriously who describes city riding as barely being cycling, riding in a city at speed is some of the most skilled riding out there.
"Bicyclists intending to turn right or left shall not be required to give a continuous hand or arm signal if the hand is needed in the control or operation of the bicycle."
I cannot recall a single time when this has been an actual conflict. What I have been on are roads so rough that taking hands off the bars is a really bad idea, and I will be extremely careful about changes when I know my signalling abilities are compromised by that.
I think if you look back at this, you'll see that right hand brake guy really doesn't do much riding in contexts where signalling in a hurry happens very often. I can't take someone seriously who describes city riding as barely being cycling, riding in a city at speed is some of the most skilled riding out there.
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08-10-21, 08:32 AM
#221
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My rear brake works great , older Dura Ace on stock Trek Bontrager Race Light wheels. Is the front more powerful ....sure.....is the rear brake useless. Not at all and is very important on crushed stone paths or sketchy conditions where locking the front would mean picking rocks out of your teeth.
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08-10-21, 12:12 PM
#222
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But, I've taken long very fast rides through New Orleans, many cities in the SF Bay Area, Boston and Minneapolis. I can't count the number of smaller U.S. cities I've ridden through--I will often cross several in the course of a century+ ride.. If I compare that to my 10s of thousands of miles riding in the hinterlands, there's no question in my mind that riding in a fast and safe manner in a city requires a whole lot more attention and skill. Generally, the margin for error is just a lot smaller in the cities.
08-10-21, 12:35 PM
#223
Junior Member
I always signal a right turn with a bent left arm, like I learned in grade school. The explanation I was given: taking one's hand off the right brake puts you more at risk of going over the handlebars if you have to brake suddenly since you would only be engaging your front brake with your left hand.
I don't know why this became too difficult for cyclists to do. Everyone seems to have adopted the pointing where you want to go thing, which to me seems condescending to fellow riders and drivers alike. But I've tried to let it go since I don't want to be the annoying guy telling his riding buddies what to do.
I don't know why this became too difficult for cyclists to do. Everyone seems to have adopted the pointing where you want to go thing, which to me seems condescending to fellow riders and drivers alike. But I've tried to let it go since I don't want to be the annoying guy telling his riding buddies what to do.
08-10-21, 12:45 PM
#224
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For the love of all things cycling, step away from your electronic device, put on your helmet (or not) and go ride your bicycle. Oh, and be sure to signal (or not).
08-10-21, 12:50 PM
#225
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I always signal a right turn with a bent left arm, like I learned in grade school. The explanation I was given: taking one's hand off the right brake puts you more at risk of going over the handlebars if you have to brake suddenly since you would only be engaging your front brake with your left hand.
I don't know why this became too difficult for cyclists to do. Everyone seems to have adopted the pointing where you want to go thing, which to me seems condescending to fellow riders and drivers alike. But I've tried to let it go since I don't want to be the annoying guy telling his riding buddies what to do.
I don't know why this became too difficult for cyclists to do. Everyone seems to have adopted the pointing where you want to go thing, which to me seems condescending to fellow riders and drivers alike. But I've tried to let it go since I don't want to be the annoying guy telling his riding buddies what to do.
That explanation is almost certainly wrong. At the time the left hand right turn signal was adopted, the vast majority of American bikes used coaster brakes. Much more likely that the origin is standardization with car hand signals.
And easy to understand=condescending? Really?