Affordable Power Meter Recommendations?
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i feel like the DS is key to understand what your true output is, since you have no way of really knowing how balanced you are otherwise. and then once you know, it doesn’t seem to matter, or at least for me it has not changed at all.
but my balance is 45/55, which means a left side measurement doubled is 10% low.
but my balance is 45/55, which means a left side measurement doubled is 10% low.
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I think that it's fairly common to have imbalance at different outputs or fatigue levels, as well; for instance, someone with a 50/50 balance at tempo may be 42/58 at sprint outputs, etc, so even a blanket adjustment may not tell the whole story. As always, though, whether or not that's important depends on what you intend to do with that info.
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Define “ most users “. Think of HR as a metric of what you have been doing and PM as a metric of what you are currently doing. Let’s say you are riding up a 1/2 mile hill with varying gradients. As you start up a steeper pitch and want to be sure you are either not going too hard or not hard enough HR is worthless. By the time you are done with a 50 or 100 yard stretch HR may be reflecting what you had just done but will have offered no feedback while doing it.
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I think that it's fairly common to have imbalance at different outputs or fatigue levels, as well; for instance, someone with a 50/50 balance at tempo may be 42/58 at sprint outputs, etc, so even a blanket adjustment may not tell the whole story. As always, though, whether or not that's important depends on what you intend to do with that info.
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Yep I definitely notice an imbalance difference at different outputs and fatigue levels. Pretty much spot on 50/50 when fresh and below threshold. Head into VO2 territory and it swings to 48/52 balance or "worse" if I'm tired. What do I do with this L/R balance information? Nothing. I'm actually not sure if there is anything I can do about it. 🤷♂️
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#32
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Favero Assioma.
I've got Duo on one bike, Uno on another.
Reasonably priced, easy to use, easy to switch between bikes, great battery life.
I have several pairs of shoes, some with Look Keo grey cleats, some with Favero's own cleats.
All work well.
I've got Duo on one bike, Uno on another.
Reasonably priced, easy to use, easy to switch between bikes, great battery life.
I have several pairs of shoes, some with Look Keo grey cleats, some with Favero's own cleats.
All work well.
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Define “ most users “. Think of HR as a metric of what you have been doing and PM as a metric of what you are currently doing. Let’s say you are riding up a 1/2 mile hill with varying gradients. As you start up a steeper pitch and want to be sure you are either not going too hard or not hard enough HR is worthless. By the time you are done with a 50 or 100 yard stretch HR may be reflecting what you had just done but will have offered no feedback while doing it.
Yes, there is a slight delay in how your system/heart reacts to efforts, but it's just a sec or 2 delay.
Your HR tells you where you are within your own capabilities. If you're already into the red zone, knowing what your power level is, is academic. Because it's certainly not going to rise or hold for very long. Push further in the red zone and the inevitable 'blow up' will happen. Power numbers mean nothing if they aren't placed into some definition of the standing of your system.
Key to using any of these tools is knowing and defining yourself within the parameters and metrics each system provides. If that hasn't happened, then the numbers are just numbers.
Having both systems and defining/ knowing how you line up within both, is the best of scenarios.
If on your hypothetical 1/2 mile hill, you find yourself well into your anaeroblic zone, then how much power you're producing or think you can produce is, again, academic.
If, however, you're not yet fully Red, then digging deeper for more power, might be possible.
There are constant reminders of this, watching the Pro races. Very often riders get 'dropped' (actually holding their current effort and not reacting to jumps) and find their way back to those who dropped them. Not because their power was inadequate, but because they know themselves enough to not be tempted to go Red and blow up. Marc Soler showed exactly that, very clearly, in his recent win in the Vuelta, and in more than one stage.
HR has much to tell a rider, if properly understood, used and defined - as does Power. If one doesn't put them into a well defined personal framework, they're just numbers.
Ride On
Yuri
#34
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That's sorta true. One can watch the rate of HR rise, which is also good information. The HRM will tell you about your more or less average effort, which is still good information. HR will also tell you things that power does not. I trained with just HR for 25 years, didn't get power until late '19. Training with power has made it mentally easier, but I don't think it has had any great effect on my average speed on hilly rides.
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I am fairly sure it has made me slower on 100 mile / 10,000’ rides! By limiting my power output on hills I keep at a pace I know is slower but I also don’t want to blow up. HR is important in its own right, especially after big rides when the next day you have a hard time getting out of Z2
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Actually, in your scenario HR is exactly what you need to make good decisions on how to ride what's ahead, especially where the efforts are extended, like a climb or hard, long tempo.
Yes, there is a slight delay in how your system/heart reacts to efforts, but it's just a sec or 2 delay.
Yes, there is a slight delay in how your system/heart reacts to efforts, but it's just a sec or 2 delay.
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if you watch you're own heart rate change to any sizeable change in activity - 1 to 2 secs at most.
Ride On
Yuri
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this is really valuable for me; my main metric of "how i'm doing" is actually the relationship of heart rate to power. 99% of my riding exists in a range between 90 and 130BPM, and if the pretty tight correlation between power and HR (for a steady state over a few minutes) is off i know that something is "wrong," so to speak - or on occasion extra right. on the really wrong days i know to just throttle back and have an easy cruise, and the "extra right" days where an extra 20 watts came from the sky at the same heart rate, breathing is good, the bike is quiet, it's time to go for some PRs.
#39
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LOL!, not likely... a one minute delay would have humans constantly passing out. ... or not being able to do any physical exertion, as the other option. You either deliver O2 to both muscles or brain, or one area suffers greatly.
if you watch you're own heart rate change to any sizeable change in activity - 1 to 2 secs at most.
if you watch you're own heart rate change to any sizeable change in activity - 1 to 2 secs at most.
"However, while theoretically sound the use of HR [heart rate] to quantify training intensity does have certain practical limitations. One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1). This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example, altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at the end of an incremental exercise test. As a result of such factors, the actual demands imposed by training can differ considerably between workouts or between individuals even if HR or relative HR is kept the same. Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s) to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed to increase neuromuscular power."
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
#40
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Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s) to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed to increase neuromuscular power."
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
Andy's talking about something related but slightly different: an initial "impulse" in power has a HR response that's quite quick but it has a HR response that lasts a long(ish) time. You can see that if you look at power and HR traces: HR jumps up faster than it falls (i.e., the response is asymmetric).
As a historical oddity, it's kind of amusing whenever I see a reference to that March 2003 version. Not many people had access to pdf-generating software in 2003, so Andy sent me the original Word document and I converted it. Like many Word docs, I had to fiddle with a couple of the graphics to make them fit. I still have Andy's original .doc file.
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I think Andy Coggan knows quite well how the heart responds to exercise:
"However, while theoretically sound the use of HR [heart rate] to quantify training intensity does have certain practical limitations. One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1). This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example, altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at the end of an incremental exercise test. As a result of such factors, the actual demands imposed by training can differ considerably between workouts or between individuals even if HR or relative HR is kept the same. Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s) to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed to increase neuromuscular power."
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
"However, while theoretically sound the use of HR [heart rate] to quantify training intensity does have certain practical limitations. One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1). This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example, altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at the end of an incremental exercise test. As a result of such factors, the actual demands imposed by training can differ considerably between workouts or between individuals even if HR or relative HR is kept the same. Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s) to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed to increase neuromuscular power."
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
Say you're going to do 10' hill repeats on a steady grade with just an HRM. You guess at the effort and watch the numbers. When you reach your goal HR, you look at your speed. Next interval you just hit that speed right away and then adjust speed to hold the desired HR. This time you notice how far you got up the hill. On succeeding intervals you start with speed then hold HR steady. When you notice that, going by HR, you haven't gotten as far up the hill as on previous intervals, you maybe do one more, maybe not, but you know you've tired. So there's a different philosophy that's being applied. With power, you just hold power steady and ignore HR.
Thus over the set, if it's long and hard enough, you'll be changing HR zones, which will mean that you're also changing the percentages of what you're burning to create that power. Thus using power or using HR, one may not be getting exactly the same training effect. On long climbs, holding HR or holding power, it can happen that the PM rider will blow up and the HR rider will not. I use both. Doing hill repeats, I hold power steady and quit when my HR changes zones. Maybe I'm a wimp.
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#42
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I think Andy Coggan knows quite well how the heart responds to exercise:
"However, while theoretically sound the use of HR [heart rate] to quantify training intensity does have certain practical limitations. One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1). This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example, altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at the end of an incremental exercise test. As a result of such factors, the actual demands imposed by training can differ considerably between workouts or between individuals even if HR or relative HR is kept the same. Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s) to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed to increase neuromuscular power."
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
"However, while theoretically sound the use of HR [heart rate] to quantify training intensity does have certain practical limitations. One is that although HR is closely correlated with exercise intensity in a laboratory-type setting, this relationship is not nearly as strong while cycling outdoors (Fig. 1). This is due to the wide variety of factors that can influence HR during exercise. For example, altitude, heat, hypohydration/dehydration, recent illness or infection, lack of sleep, and large fluctuations in power output (e.g., in a group ride setting, or in hilly terrain) all tend to increase HR during exercise at a given intensity, whereas acute overreaching has the opposite effect. In addition, the relationship of HR to power can differ between individuals, even if normalized in some manner, e.g., to the HR measured during a time trial (TT), or to maximal HR measured at the end of an incremental exercise test. As a result of such factors, the actual demands imposed by training can differ considerably between workouts or between individuals even if HR or relative HR is kept the same. Moreover, since HR responds relatively slowly (half-life = ~30 s) to changes in exercise intensity, HR monitoring cannot be used to regulate the intensity of shorter efforts, such as brief intervals aimed at enhancing anaerobic capacity or sprints designed to increase neuromuscular power."
Andrew R. Coggan, Ph.D., Training and racing using a power meter: an introduction, 25 March 2003 (revised)
Very simple to try and observe yourself.
With a decent HRM, bring yourself up to a steady effort, steady bpm reading, good to be at 140 ish bpm. Get up and sprint or any other much HARDER effort (climb, whatever).
You will see the bpms rise within 7-10 secs or less.
On my VDO HRM with wahoo kickr strap, I see the displayed rise in bpm starting within 5 sec. there is a delay due to equipment and wireless.
On my recent purchase Garmin Edge 130 and Kickr the display starts noting in 7-8 sec.
try it.
Ride On
Yuri
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Basically adds up to HR alone has limitations, including the lag in response, and drift from fatigue, dehydration etc.
Use HR, power, and perceived effort, together and you’ve got more insight than HR alone
Use HR, power, and perceived effort, together and you’ve got more insight than HR alone
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In the other direction, the HR response seems even slower. If I reduce my power, it seems to take forever for HR to drop back to the “lower power” value. Not forever, of course. But it’s definitely longer.
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As a historical oddity, it's kind of amusing whenever I see a reference to that March 2003 version. Not many people had access to pdf-generating software in 2003, so Andy sent me the original Word document and I converted it. Like many Word docs, I had to fiddle with a couple of the graphics to make them fit. I still have Andy's original .doc file.
The amusing meta info from that March 2003 document (Distiller 4, Word 9):
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#47
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Yesterday I did a ride I have done for years. 106 miles, 10,000’ climbing. Of course at 62 I don’t go as fast as when I was 30. In fact I strategize how to come back in one piece and enjoy the ride. Whopping 12.9 mph avg HR 123. I used HR for years before I got PM pedals so I make a habit of watching HR. I can tell without looking what my HR is. It varies but I know how it responds. There are some very painful hills on this ride. What PM does so much better than HR is tell me exactly when I want to shift on hills that have a rapidly increasing series of pitches.On short rides this concern about conserving energy is not as important but I don’t want to make the call of shame 50 miles from home!
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There's a story about that, too. March 2003 was a pretty wild time: we'd invaded Iraq. In early June I was producing a pdf of one of my own papers when it occurred to me to check the metadata for the pdf I'd produced from Andy's .doc. It still had my default metadata, so I had to re-generate that pdf, and I gave it those fields. As yet another aside, he used North American month-day-year date format. That "Revised 25 March 2003" on the front page was added by me to let people know the June re-generation was the same content as the previous version, it just had different metadata.
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I've been looking at watches that I might upgrade to, and have been comparing the Garmin 955 to the 255. One feature of the 955 that's interesting is the Advanced Cycling Dynamics. Are Power2max, Favero, or any other non-Garmin power meters compatible with that?
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Favero Assioma pedals are compatible with advanced cycling dynamics except for pedal offset. All others are supported.