Thomas DeGent no fan of hookless…
02-27-24, 12:28 PM
#76
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I'm personally in a cartel in my day job industry, so believe me, I understand.
.
Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 12:34 PM.
02-27-24, 12:28 PM
#77
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02-27-24, 12:32 PM
#79
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02-27-24, 12:35 PM
#80
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So you have no evidence. Gotcha.
By the way, I know of no businesses that release their "internal communications to the public." So nothing unusual about that.
By the way, I know of no businesses that release their "internal communications to the public." So nothing unusual about that.
02-27-24, 12:39 PM
#81
Senior Member
Visited my local bike dealer recently. One of the 'big three'. Most of the higher end road and gravel options came hookless, with a small selection of 'approved' tire options. Of course these options were only sold through the dealer network, and they were all bloody expensive.
I think the next evolution of the bike industry is brand-specific wheel/tire sizes. That is, tires completely specific to each of the 'big three' vendors, so as to further encourage brand loyalty. Since 'bigger' and 'stiffer' is always better in the minds of the naive buying public, this may spawn a tit for tat arms race of wheel diameters that could go like this: 29 to 29.5, then 30.0, 30.5 etc.
I think the next evolution of the bike industry is brand-specific wheel/tire sizes. That is, tires completely specific to each of the 'big three' vendors, so as to further encourage brand loyalty. Since 'bigger' and 'stiffer' is always better in the minds of the naive buying public, this may spawn a tit for tat arms race of wheel diameters that could go like this: 29 to 29.5, then 30.0, 30.5 etc.
02-27-24, 12:41 PM
#82
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02-27-24, 12:41 PM
#83
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Not if they and their competitors are in a cartel.
That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.
I hear what you're saying, but the reality is that most manufacturers have jumped to hookless and all their wheels are as expensive as ever. They've collectively adopted this cost saving measure for themselves, and consumers are left in exactly the same position as before, except now with an arguably inferior product.
If it was the case that brands are selling both hooked and hookless versions of their wheels, and consumers have the option of saving money by choosing the hookless version, THAT would make sense. But that's not the case, is it? For example if you go to the Hunt website, their high end wheel is $3,000 and it's hookless. Where's the money that I'm supposedly "saving"? Why can't I get a hooked version if I'm willing to pay more? Consumers have been conned, no matter how much the brands try to fluff and spin that hookless is "better".
Yeah, it's better. Better for themselves. Not better for us.
That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.
I hear what you're saying, but the reality is that most manufacturers have jumped to hookless and all their wheels are as expensive as ever. They've collectively adopted this cost saving measure for themselves, and consumers are left in exactly the same position as before, except now with an arguably inferior product.
If it was the case that brands are selling both hooked and hookless versions of their wheels, and consumers have the option of saving money by choosing the hookless version, THAT would make sense. But that's not the case, is it? For example if you go to the Hunt website, their high end wheel is $3,000 and it's hookless. Where's the money that I'm supposedly "saving"? Why can't I get a hooked version if I'm willing to pay more? Consumers have been conned, no matter how much the brands try to fluff and spin that hookless is "better".
Yeah, it's better. Better for themselves. Not better for us.
The way I see it right now is that if you are selling hookless wheels, then you need to be pricing pretty keenly to convince anyone to make the switch. If you are going to use lower production cost as part of your marketing, then your pricing needs to back that up to some extent. Zipp at least appear to have done that.
02-27-24, 12:42 PM
#84
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Not if they and their competitors are in a cartel.
That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.
That aside, Farsports, Winspace, and Light Bicycle are exactly what you're referring to. The Winspace Hyper 50 wheel is universally acclaimed and these Chinese brands have exploded onto the scene in the last few years. Western brands are coasting on momentum and reputation at this point. That's not going to last forever.
Yes, the well-known brands can price their products at a premium, probably because of brand recognition and supply chain penetration.
I try not to let brand name affect my buying decisions, but established brands do engender some trustworthiness. I took a risk and recently bought a pair of Winspace HYPER wheels, and they seem to be very good quality. Fingers crossed.
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02-27-24, 12:44 PM
#85
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But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence, I got your nose".
You see the problem with that logic?
02-27-24, 12:49 PM
#86
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02-27-24, 12:50 PM
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Fair is fair, you got me. I have no evidence. I don't like to beat about the bush.
But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence".
You see the problem with that logic?
But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence".
You see the problem with that logic?
Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
02-27-24, 12:56 PM
#88
Senior Member
No doubt you already know all this, after all that's why you bought them.
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02-27-24, 01:10 PM
#89
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That's complete nonsense. deBeers and OPEC are two very well-known cartels -- they have never even tried to make a secret of their business models. The International Tin Agreement and the International Bauxite Association are also (defunct) examples. Again, very well-known, very well-understood -- they made no secret of their attempts to cartelize their respective industries.
Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
.
- Price fixing cartels are illegal in almost every democracy in the world including the US. De Beers of South Africa that you brought up has been in legal trouble in the US for as long as they've existed. The US government has been taking anti-trust action against them for decades and to this day they are unable to maintain a corporate presence in the US. At some point they attempted to secretly enter the US diamond market, and got kicked out when the US government found out. They were still being pursued by the US legal system as recently as the 2000s.
- OPEC and the others you mentioned are a different type of cartel, Export Cartels. Unlike price fixing cartels, these are universally legal around the world.
Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
Last edited by Yan; 02-27-24 at 01:15 PM.
02-27-24, 01:31 PM
#90
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On my gravel bike I don't see an issue with hookless. On large volume tires there's no need to pump air beyond 60 PSI. It was also super easy to bead my tubeless tires with just a regular floor pump. No need for a compressor. To me it's a win-win.
On my road bike, I'm in the hooked camp. I like pumping my road tires up to 90-100 PSI and I prefer lightweight clinchers + TPU tubes. I've had blow outs on fast downhills and thankfully my hooked road wheels kept the tire securely in the rim bead in order to safely slow down with no damage to the wheel or myself.
On my road bike, I'm in the hooked camp. I like pumping my road tires up to 90-100 PSI and I prefer lightweight clinchers + TPU tubes. I've had blow outs on fast downhills and thankfully my hooked road wheels kept the tire securely in the rim bead in order to safely slow down with no damage to the wheel or myself.
02-27-24, 01:35 PM
#91
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02-27-24, 01:37 PM
#92
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Alright Tomato. I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your angst. "There's no cartel". See I typed it. Are you happy now?
Next time you quote me kindly quote the entire post instead of sneakily taking a few words out of context to manipulate.
Next time you quote me kindly quote the entire post instead of sneakily taking a few words out of context to manipulate.
02-27-24, 01:45 PM
#93
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Next time you quote me kindly quote the entire post instead of sneakily taking a few words out of context to manipulate.
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02-27-24, 01:50 PM
#94
Senior Member
Fair is fair, you got me. I have no evidence. I don't like to beat about the bush.
But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence, I got your nose".
You see the problem with that logic?
But you didn't really pose a good faith request, did you? Cartels by definition would never release evidence of their existence. You ask for evidence. Obviously it's impossible for an outsider to get their hands on evidence, or it wouldn't be a very good cartel, would it? Next you proclaim, "see, you have no evidence, I got your nose".
You see the problem with that logic?
02-27-24, 01:53 PM
#95
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But again, the important part is that you have admitted to having no evidence for any of this. So, regardless of what you choose (incorrectly) to call it, your assertion is entirely unsupported.
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02-27-24, 01:55 PM
#96
Senior Member
Nope. See the below.
Your lack of knowledge poking through Koyote. You're confusing two different types of cartels.
.
Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
That's complete nonsense. deBeers and OPEC are two very well-known cartels -- they have never even tried to make a secret of their business models. The International Tin Agreement and the International Bauxite Association are also (defunct) examples. Again, very well-known, very well-understood -- they made no secret of their attempts to cartelize their respective industries.
Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
Perhaps you shouldn't throw around terms that you clearly do not understand.
.
- Price fixing cartels are illegal in almost every democracy in the world including the US. De Beers of South Africa that you brought up has been in legal trouble in the US for as long as they've existed. The US government has been taking anti-trust action against them for decades and to this day they are unable to maintain a corporate presence in the US. At some point they attempted to secretly enter the US diamond market, and got kicked out when the US government found out. They were still being pursued by the US legal system as recently as the 2000s.
- OPEC and the others you mentioned are a different type of cartel, Export Cartels. Unlike price fixing cartels, these are universally legal around the world.
Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
02-27-24, 01:57 PM
#97
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Your lack of knowledge poking through Koyote. You're confusing two different types of cartels.
.
Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
.
- Price fixing cartels are illegal in almost every democracy in the world including the US. De Beers of South Africa that you brought up has been in legal trouble in the US for as long as they've existed. The US government has been taking anti-trust action against them for decades and to this day they are unable to maintain a corporate presence in the US. At some point they attempted to secretly enter the US diamond market, and got kicked out when the US government found out. They were still being pursued by the US legal system as recently as the 2000s.
- OPEC and the others you mentioned are a different type of cartel, Export Cartels. Unlike price fixing cartels, these are universally legal around the world.
Next time don't talk so arrogant. Makes yourself look bad.
02-27-24, 01:59 PM
#98
Senior Member
Alright Koyote, I'm willing to type whatever you want to help you reduce your deep angst. "There's no cartel". See I typed it. Are you happy now?
02-27-24, 02:04 PM
#99
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02-27-24, 02:06 PM
#100
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Along with cartel, you also seem to not understand the meaning of angst. I see nothing in my posts or in tomato coupe posts which indicate the present of angst.
Really? Because you sure sound pretty angsty. For example, you're still acting up even after I offered to parrot to you exactly what you want to hear.
When someone has already gotten everything they wanted, yet they are still continuing to act up, that's angst.
