terrymorse 

Downhill speed records are so meh. My highest speed on the Corte Madera down hill is 35.6 mph, coasting without getting aero. The "KOM" speed is 61.7 mph, set by a woman. I call shenanigans.

Hope you're all stopping at the stop sign.

ofajen

Here’s a thought. I’m an 80kg rider. If I wear a 16kg ruck vest when I ride, I will have 20% more total work climbing a hill against the conservative force of gravity (neglecting bike weight).

There is also an “overhead” of work required (core and upper body at least) working to stabilize the body on the bike while standing. So if I add the ruck vest, I’m also increasing that overhead, presumably by 20%. The same difference would also be there for a rider my height and fitness who was carrying an 16 kg.

Since that overhead increases and detracts from the fraction of total work I’m doing that is moving the bike, it makes it less practical to spend that energy on standing and makes it preferable to sit and be more efficient.

There may also an effect if the extra weight is due to adipose tissue versus say greater height, since a similar musculature is trying to stabilize more weight.

In the climbing context there is also that effect of power as a function of mass, which published data indicate is about 0.7 for athlete of similar level of conditioning. So the available power doesn’t keep up with the climbing work as a rider gets heavier. Another pressure to seek maximum efficiency.

Otto

genejockey 

Alpine from Willowbrook to Arastradero is part of my Sunday route, so every Sunday, I stop at Corte Madera. I aim to hit 30 mph by the time I hit the intersection at Indian Crossing, then tuck and coast to Portola, to see how fast I can go. 35 is easy, I can hit that on any of my bikes. The Canyon can hit 38.5, easily.

Generally I'm damn close to a complete stop there, even if I'm NOT stopping to refill at the tap there.

terrymorse 

Good habit, and always look left for the sheriff's deputy car. Many tickets have been handed out there.

genejockey 

I haven't seen one there, but I've heard about that, so I always look left there, even when going straight. Mind you, I watched the entire Spectrum ride - midsummer, so a LOT of riders! - pour through that intersection from Portola without even slowing. Even stragglers, seconds after the peloton had passed! Taking their lives in their hands, those stragglers - cars on Alpine were starting to roll.

tomato coupe

That's where physics is a useful tool.

genejockey 

I'm perfectly happy with the observation. I don't really care all that much about the explanation.

tomato coupe

Yes, that's another issue. Inefficiencies of this type can hurt a heavier rider more than a lighter rider, but only if the inefficiencies are significant and they scale with mass in a meaningful way. I think the jury is still out on that. (The linked article found no measurable inefficiency while standing: "Their metabolic measures such as VO2 and heart rate did not differ between seated and standing climbing positions.")

All of my posts have addressed the idea that lifting one's body weight while standing penalizes heavier riders. You introduced the idea of conservative forces, which makes it obvious that lifting the body weight isn't an issue. When you lift the body during the pedal stoke, it increases the potential energy of the body briefly, before some of it gets swapped out for increased potential energy of the bike.

FBinNY 

It depends on the hill

Eons ago, I developed the concept of "bite size" hills, modeled on the concept of bite size candy bars you pop into your mouth, rather than biting off sections. So, a bite size hill is attacked and (hopefully) topped before you crap out.

While I've always been a decent climber, I don't enjoy doing so. So when I approach a hill I'll decide whether it's bite-sized, and if so, I'll take it like a sprinter, otherwise like a distance runner.

tomato coupe

That's your prerogative, of course. But, I'd rather know if some riders stand because it's just their preference, or whether there is a scientific reason for it.

bikingshearer 

I heard it attributed to Hampsten. It was probably actually first said by Alfredo Binda or maybe Maurice Garin.

bikingshearer 

If we both start from a dead stop and just coast, my money is on me. Let's not sully the results by introducing unfair factors such as pedaling ability . . . .

genejockey 

Do not overlook the aerodynamic advantage of a smaller frontal area. You're a couple inches taller than me!

genejockey 

The personal preference to remain seated skews heavily toward the heavy, and I personally have always found climbing out of the saddle to be more tiring than climbing in the saddle, and yet a number of the best climbers* in the pro peloton do long sections of climbs standing, which they surely would not do if they, too, found it more tiring to stand than sit.

So, there IS a scientific explanation. We - meaning you and I - haven't identified it. Others may well have done.

*generally little spidery guys.

One Wheel

I grind, 100%. My cassette is 11-28, with 52-42-30 chainrings. It takes a couple of hours on the bike first, or a grade of at least 10% probably 15%, to get me into the 30t chainring. Overall average speed is around 16 mph, so I'm not spinning 800+ watts to do those gears.

2 observations:

1. It takes energy to move your legs, regardless of how much force you're putting out. More fat or muscle on your legs increases internal resistance, therefore lighter (thinner) athletes will be relatively more efficient spinning than grinding, while heavier (fatter) athletes will be relatively more efficient grinding than spinning. I'm definitely on the heavier side for cyclists at about 5'9" 190 lbs.

2. Most cyclists are running gearing that is too narrow. Base your calculations on max and min speeds, not average. I want to pedal both up a 20% grade into a 30 mph headwind (1.5 mph?) and turn around and pedal down the same (65-70 mph?). That means for similar cadence I should have a gear range of about 4500%, not the 500+% bike companies like to talk about. If you're spending more than 1-2% of your riding time in either your biggest or your smallest gear, you have the wrong gears.

ofajen

I would tend to agree that the overhead from standing has to do extra effort of peripheral musculature in stabilizing the body while doing the work. The up and down parts up a climb will tend to cancel out.

Otto

LarrySellerz

sounds terrible lol.

as someone who lives on a very steep hill and doesn’t drive, my usual strategy is to do the “easiest” thing. This means zig-zagging up the hill while seated, using as little energy as possible, or going out of the saddle and finding a rhythm, which is kind of difficult at low powers. I feel that standing is better for your knees.

if I’m trying to go as fast as I can up a hill, I stay seated if the climb is longer than 20 seconds.

genejockey 

Dude - Corte Madera to Portola on Alpine is a DESCENT. About 0.35 miles of - 6.4%

genejockey 

Or move someplace flatter.

terrymorse 

Okay, I rode that segment today, because that top speed was pretty lame. I did an out-of-the-saddle sprint until I ran out of gears, sat down and spun out at 125 cadence.

New highest speed: 40.8 mph. 7th place on the old people's leader board (65+). Might be my maximum, given my weight handicap.

One Wheel

Flatter ground doesn't require as wide of a range, true. Most current gearing options are probably adequate for flat areas.

PeteHski

So you are hitting 70 mph on 20% descents hey. I seriously doubt it unless you are a top pro descender on a closed road.

But I kind of agree with your point. Most people don’t have a low enough gear for steep climbs at a comfortable cadence. I have a 1:1 lowest gear and that becomes a total grindfest above 15% gradient. Old-school gearing is even worse.

Desert Ryder

I have done the zig zag to catch a break and continue uphill without getting off to walk. After a few zigs and zags I will resume my attack on the hill.

rsbob 

I eat grinders whilst I spin

Passing seated people pushing high gears on a climb and obviously suffering makes me want yell out, go to a lower gear. But then there bike may be in the lowest, or they are working on doing some leg strengthening. Or maybe they are dumb a=@$$e$. But gear down anyway!

Sierra_rider

I didn't know Wisconsin was full of 20% grade climbs long enough to hit 65-70mph on? I live in a pretty mountainous area, so I'll be happy with my 1:1 climbing ratio and learn to live with spinning out a compact crank at only 40mph.